NWB - Community Blog

It's a fairly good point you make Mr Hulk, but a bit sweeping in my opinion.
But why would the rock venues that get packed change?? And if you have gigs coming out of your ears what's the worry.
I don't think for one minute you could say any pub that's closed recently has anything to do with putting the "wrong" bands on.
Since I joined the site I've seen the number of indie and punk bands increase so what you're advocating seems to be happening naturally.

Whilst I agree that most rock bands on here probably have in their set list some of "the same boring rock classics" (his words not mine!!) that's what their audience want.

And finally, what do you think is most likely, venues broadening their style of band, or the rockers changing their sets??
or c) None of the above? LOL

Willow

"A change is as good as a rest"...Duke Bocks Party Train leaving platform 1 soon! (when I find a warblin widdler!!)
*slaps own hand for shameless blogjack and advertising!!!*
Kev

some really good points made there i think. its very hard to choose a set list that caters for all without someone saying "that was good but it could do with a few more classics in there"!. or " that was good but you should put a few more up to date ones in there" we want to put more new heavier songs in our set but we held back a bit for fear of not getting many gigs. catch 22!!!

Some very valid points Mr Hulk, BUT there are a number of venues where the punters go because they have rock bands on. Try doing Arctic Monkeys/Oasis at Porters and you would get lynched.
When i played in a Rock Band about 18 months ago we were getting the same comments from some venues, " great band but we heard it all last week". Needless to say we didn't actively look to go back.
I also put on another blog the fact that i have had a number of phone calls from pubs asking us for free dates. When i pointed out that they usually have Rock Bands on they said they wanted to try something different and we are into Soul/Funk. We do a great regular Gig in a small venue where we can get into real Acid Funk and some of the more obscure numbers. A Rock Band woud go down like a lead balloon, but we give them what they want and have an absolute ball as well. I was with Gordon from Dyehouse yesterday and we had a good hearted debate about the merits of various genres, mainly involving women...., but you make your own choices.
Classic Rock is NOT closing venues, in many cases it is helping to increase the popularity of a pub. The problem is the Landlord not knowing his target audience IMHO.

Totally agree Stuart. Surely It's part of the landlords job to know what his regulars enjoy, be it darts/dominoes, Kareoke or live bands of 1 or more genre. If he/she cant get that right then its hardly surprising if they go "titsup". Horses for courses as they say. Although, nothing wrong with trying something a little different now and again as long as the customers are made aware of the kind of entertainment being offered..so..Duke Bocks Party Train leaving..etc,etc, ;0)

Just played 2 BUSY venues doing rock classics this weekend in both if we would played Oasis or Indie they would have emptied in seconds, i even had a lad about 20 yr old askin for floyd!!!

I think it would be fair to say ...... you can't please all the people all the time!

Just to clarify a point, The band last night was an experiment in as much as I would normally only place bands with 'history'. The lads played a wide selection of 'classic rock' but mixed in a few of their own songs.First to say there was no 'Smoke',Allright Now,etc. But equally no Kaisers.Kings of Leon,Frattelli's etc.

The Eddy is well known as a Rock Venue and the customers (at least 90%) come to The eddy because of that. There are other venues in Blackpool that cater for other genres, eg Soul Suite,Walkabout,West Coast,Blue Room and have their own following.

Classic Rock is NOT closing venues, in fact live music (of whatever genre) can be the salvation for many pubs if they cater for their regular customers as well as attracting a new customer base

Classic rock isn't closing venues. It's a mixture of supermarkets selling cheaper booze and the smoking ban, plus our weather not making people want to venture out.

Some pubs we play would be dead if it wasn't for bands - bands are all that they have to bring punters in.

its just horses for courses innit!

One word: variety

Playing 70's Punk we know we have to research our venues in advance. We can clear a pub full of 'kids' in seconds.....anyone who stays for a few songs realise that we are a very good, tight, energetic band (in my opinion) but we know we are a 'specialist' band and wouldn't want to play to a 'radio 1' audience.....
We are a Punk band who want to play to Punks.....
I know some venues have said to us ''we only have rock on here....punk would empty the gaff''
Fair enough.....
You've got to research the venue before making the commitment to take a booking.....Horses for courses.
Cheers
Gary

Ben stole my line, it is definitely horses for courses.
There are venues we play that a rock band would clear the place and we have had the same....i think we have cleared a venue LOL.

We do have plenty of gigs has been stated so there are enough venuea at the moment for different styles to exist.
My thoughts on this was more of the cabaret circuit i,e the clubs.
I have seen a few of these closed in my area or change because they never did evolve they were still playing to audiences of 65+
They see me as a youngster at bloody 40.
These are the type of venues that needed to evolve.

Aiden

I see where you're coming from Hulk. We had a similar problem with MinIm, but at the end of the day it's the venue which choses the kind of entertainment it wishes to provide and the bands that play are fulfilling that criteria. The venue stands or falls on the choice of its management not on the bands that are supplying that choice. Now..have I mentioned...

oiii Aiden..I used that line about 10" that way ^^^^^...lol

@Hulk
"the normal chav in a pub only knows music from the last 5 years tops. That is where pubs should be aiming."

Well done mate .. you've just pretty much made the case for pubs putting no bands on at all .... just mindless boom boom boom disco and karaoke!

I'm sure that's not what you intended tho.

By the way .... what IS your point? Venues or bands??
Willow

Sorry Duke....as Duke said also :0)

Aiden

I have to agree with the blog to some degree, I love almost all music and because I have been on the planet a bit longer than some of you guys, I have seen most of the bands that other bands aspire to even the great Jimi Hendrix, so I love all old rock anthems from the past, and I still love to here them, however we do try and do a varied type of material, if you look at our track list (and this will have a lot of material added to it in the quite near future) beatles to foo fighters with a bit of free etc thrown in, we are all different ages in our band and as a consequence like a lot of different styles from different eras,strangely enough we went on holiday to Newquay in Cornwall in September last year, we went to watch a few local bands whilst we were there, at one particular pub it was packed with mostly people from the 18-25 age group, before the band came on I was talking to the lead guitarist and he wasn`t sure what kind of response he would recieve from the audience, he need`nt have worried, the place was in uproar with people singing along they all seemed to know the lyrics to every song, most of the females were dancing to the music and they had to do about ten extra songs before the audience would let them pack up, bearing in mind some of the audience were locals and some were on holiday.

So what kind of material do you think the band was playing ?, sex on fire ?, free ?.

No they were a beatles tribute band !!!

So to some degree it probably is horses for courses.

Myself personally I believe the reason some of the venues are closing is because of peoples finances or lack of, electric, gas rates, mortgages, food all far more expensive then ever before, and if you have a family what comes first going out or paying your bills and buying food ?.

The smoking ban only plays a small part, cheap booze in the supermarkets also does`nt help, its all to do with money, however because there is not as much spare money about when people can afford to go out they want to be able to go somewhere and have a good night out, usually a pub with a good band on does the trick or somewhere that also provides good food at a reasonable price, I dont really think that it matters too much the style of music so long as it is played well, although some places do get known for having certain types of bands on.

I for one would not want to see this degenerating into a 'Classic V Modern' clash (been far too many of those on here in the past few months), but, at the end of the day its all about putting on crowd pleasers and if that means timeless classics then so be it.
Venues sticking with tried and tested is not a bad policy,its a safe policy. We have to remember the venues are there for the customer not for the bands.

Hulk civil is my middle name.
Smart arse is my stage name.
I'm not starting anything off, I was merely responding to a point you made.
Also asking you to clarify what point you were making as it all got a bit confused between having a pop at rock bands (of which I'm not one by the way so none of this is personal to me) and giving advice to venues.
I see now from your last post that you're aiming your point at venues. Good luck.
Willow

have I mentioned Duke Bocks Pa...oh yeh..av avenaye? ;0P

I now see that you're talking to both bands and venues.
I still stand by my original reply way back up at the top that in my opinion no venue has gone under for putting the "wrong" type of band on. So yes i disagree completely with you.
But not is a smart arse way.
Viva la difference
Willow

Posted by hulkamania78

Bands and venues need to take a look at themselves.

Venues should also listen to their customers and organize their nights accordingley.
This year I will be putting on Soft Rock/Reggae/Punk/Original as well as the regular Classic/Hard Rock stuff. The reason? Cos that what my customers have asked me for.

I used to look after the bookings for a pub that was starting to get very popular with the Classic crowd, and died cos the landlady only wanted to hear sex on fire/American Idiot/Dirtbag, and would not have bands she didn't please her.
Its a bloody tough job pleasing everyone.

Just a thought; If we were to encourage more venues to register with NWB, they could pick over some of the more informative blogs and maybe pick up a few helpful pointers. Hmmm Just a though as I said.

Agreed Keef. Well put.

IMO the main onus in this is on the venue.

The bands get the easy job. Turn up, play, go home (ok, sometimes whinge about having to turn down/set up in a small space etc).

The venue has the job of assessing the area they are in, the wants/needs/preferences of the punters, the viability of having live bands on ad infinitum. There are a lot of variables that bands simply have no understanding of and even don't care about (wahwahwah! Xxxxxx venue won't have us on! Wahwahwah!)

To say a style of music can kill a venue is preposterous. The choices and decisions of the proprietor/s are what make or break a venue. It's fine saying "take a chance". With the shrinking profit margins the pubs are trying to survive on, chance is sometimes a luxury they cannot afford.

And FWIW I don't play Classic Rock. For now.

@bad horsie mick: reference the viability of having live bands on.
some venues are not suited for live music in my opinion.

Exactly mate. It's just one of the variables that the venue need to take into consideration. I don't envy them at all.

A lot of venues can learn something from Marigolds. The girls there put a wide variety of bands on, established and new. They promote themselves as a "live music venue", not a rock or an indie venue and I know they get annoyed when anyone tries to pigeonhole them as an indie venue. It just so happens they have a indie bias but are not exclusively indie.

Variety is the spice of life. Some of the "classic rock" venues should be trying something different.

I can never understand why a venue would promote themselves as a solely classic rock venue. Why alienate yourself to the other 99% of the popoulation who don't want to listen to Wishing Well every night?

Establish yourself as a live music venue. Diversify and enjoy several busy nights rather than just one. It's not rocket science.

As a band, we try not to label ourselves as an indie band. We are an anthems band. We play guitar anthems from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and present day that would appeal to a wide cross section of people.

@ ST,
Re Marigolds: It just so happens they have a indie bias but are not axclusively indie.

By the same token, The Eddy has a Classic Rock Bias but is not exclusively CR.

Quote 'Some of the "classic rock" venues should be trying something different.
If it gets the punters in, Stick with it.Change for changes sake is far too big a risk for all but the bravest (and wealthiest) of venues

The number of variables and considerations to make a venue work goes far beyond the genres.

"Variety is the spice of life. Some of the "classic rock" venues should be trying something different."

On the other side of the coin "If it's not broke, don't fix it".

The focus is on how to get money over the bar, which is pretty much decided by punters walking in and staying in. If variety WORKS for a venue, that simply means the punters in that area like variety. If the people buying beer like JUST indie or JUST Rock, that's the equation that works. That's why Marigolds works and by the same sum, the reason that the Hindley arms and Cricketers are always full.

It's ALL about selling beer at the end of the day. Selling beer keeps pubs open. No amount of "not understanding" will change the fact that what works for one pub may not work for another. Have you tried establishing a live music venue? Yes, you might enjoy several busy nights. You could just as easily crash and burn.

Keef! Simulpost! lol!

@ Mick,

You have an awareness of the pub trade that makes me ask; Have you run a pub or simply spend far too much time in them LOL.


Very valid points and well put

if a band pulls the punters book them, simples.

@ Keef,

Heheheh, neither mate. I just look at a bigger picture than most players. I spent some time before getting this band up and running just thinking about the relationship between pub/band/punter. From the band point of view, I take the stance that I/we are an employee of the venue for the night, and therefore a representative too. Be good with the staff and give the punters what they want and the main part of the battle is won. I've been around too many people who piss and moan about how it should be rather than getting on and working with the way it is.

@ bad horsie-we've had this conversation before, mick? and,once again-spot on!!! ;-)

@Mick.

Tip me hat to ya mate. Bands and venues that play together stay together is how I see it. If we pull together to please the customers and attract new ones we all win.

Posted by Keef - "venues should listen to their customers"

we had a fantastic band support us before christmas to try to get a foot in the door at a venue and get a booking

Younger crowd in that night LOVED THE BAND - and were asking when they were next on at the pub!

Bosses werent that impressed as it wasnt 'their cup of tea'

Band still not been booked!

Maybe lessons to be learned i think x

@ SHINE,

Point is, that's the bosses decision. Not your fault, the other bands or the punters. :o)

If it aint broke dont fix it? The venues are closing. Clearly there is a problem somewhere. For a small handful of venues, sticking to one genre works well. But it's the exception rather than the rule. I'm suggesting the other venues need to think twice before trying to do the same.

Bin there recently Karen with a venue (see above posts). Lessons to be learned indeed! Hopefully sooner rather than later.

ST Most of the venues on here have a winning formula, and continue to trade. I feel its more about education than risk taking that will make a difference.

@ Socialtornado,

Venues are closing for a number of reasons. It's laughable to suggest a style of music is the cause.

Don't just pull a single sentence out of my posts. You know full well I was simply putting across the opposite to your choice of phrase. The venues....no...the PUBS are closing because the people running them are unable to earn a living from them. That's the issue.
Putting live music on is a business choice. It can succeed or fail depending on the factors involved, but live music of any type is not the reason that the "venues"are shutting.

some great points made in this thread. i love bands to try somethin different but i have to be honest theres nowt like rockin out to whole lotta rosie or a bit of purple or zep at the end of a gig especially wen youve had a few! these songs have stood the test of time for a reason. just my 10 pence worth.

have said this before-from where i live to rochdale, up to about five years ago, there were at least 18 pubs-only one (spring mill tavern) had live music (bands or artists) -half of them have now closed.

I have recently been involved in getting a PUB (Not a Venue) back up and running , in an advisory capacity. Holds about 200, no music license, Apartments above - privately owned. so no live music allowed because iof Noise restrictions.. Its now busy every day/Night of the week. So what makes it work?
They did their research, found out what their potential customer base would want and worked toward attracting the right type of clientele in. Themed Food nights most nights, Quiz nights at week ends, Real ales/Guest ales (at least 4 changing every two weeks), affordable bar food.

Just what was missing in the local area. The previous owners couldn't make it pay simply because they didn't take the time to see what would work and expected to survive on beer sales alone. Pubs as well as venues have to be a little more 'Savvy' in these harsh times

Well i aint gettin involved in this debate ,yet again ! talk about classic rock being same old same old , these feckin blogs are ,
All i know is this !
we play 90% classic old school Rock , with (As our banner says ) 4 decades of rock, ie few more modern No's etc etc

works for us , the diary proves it !
But in my opinion for what its worth after 22 years gigin, to say Classic Rock is the Downfall of Venues is ridiculous !
All this Classic rockband v indie v originals is all Bollox and only exhists on this bloody site

A good covers band for me play lots of songs that are not played to death and one or two that are. Tribute bands obviously are in a different position.

One thing that I would say though is that the songs which are played to death in Lancashire are not the same songs which are oveplayed elsewhere in the UK. There is only a very small number of songs that are overplayed nationally. This is fact. Therefore to solve this problem there are two options-

1. Lancashire bands never play in Lancashire.

2. Research every venue before gigging there.

Neither are sensible options so I don't really see an answer. At the end of the day it is all about personal taste. Personally I can't stand "Summer Of 69" but I seem to be the only person in Lancashire who feels the same way so.... what do I know?

some valid points here but your anti classic rock band attitude is spoiling it a little. You have mentioned that the regular pubs you play look forward to you turning up....that's why you're regular mate, same as other bands of ALL genres getting regular bookings at their regular places. Venues do indeed need to do a bit more homework, but to blame a certain style of music on them going bust is, well, laughable as well as insulting. I have looked into the pub situation quite closely and NOT ONCE has anyone mentioned a pub closing due to live music (of any genre), there are many underlying factors, live music isn't one of them. My personal taste in music varies, yes I play classic rock, I love the stuff we play (except summer of 69)but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to listen to other stuff. I am no fan of Oasis and actually cannot abide listening to bands covering the same old songs by them, but if it's played well I appreciate it. A lot of bands on here do the same songs but it's not just the classic rock folk......let he who is without sin etc.
rant over

oh by the way...........set list chart...No1 way out in front, Indie tune lol

who's slagging anyone off? I made a point that's all, did you actually read it all or just the bits you wanted

in what way? I expressed my dislike of Oasis songs NOT the bands playing them

@ hulkamania78-"Hello - pot kettle I'd say there is more bands on here do /All right now /wishing well/ smoke on the water than any other song.”
I beg to differ-
http://www.northwestbands.co.uk/setlistchart

Posted by hulkamania78
Eventually Oasis and the like will become classic Rock persay

Perhaps, but they drew their inspiration (and more some might argue) from The genre that is Classic Rock.

I just wonder where we would be today if the rock of the 50s/60s 70s and 80s had not evolved the way it did.

Ha Ha ... priceless!!
to paraphrase ...... "I don't believe it .... I rest my case" LOL
Willow

@ the Big Fish- what you reckon, willow?-looks like hulkamania78 is a person who won't let an indisputable fact get in the way of his opinion,huh?? heh heh!! ;-D

Enterprise the UK's second biggest pub group said the smoking ban, two consecutive years of poor summer weather, higher alcohol duties and weakening consumer confidence had pushed revenues down 4.45pc to £880m.

While insisting that pub profitability would be resilient in the face of the recession, Mr Tuppen admitted that more pubs would go to the wall as "changing trends and fashions" and the economic downturn took their toll.

Enterprise said it would offload a "couple of hundred" pubs over the coming 12 months to generate cash and pay off part of a £1bn loan due to be refinanced in May 2011.



Funny no mention of grizzled old rock bands versus the young bucks here!

I rest my case

chortle
Willow

p.s. which clique am i in please?

Was not aware of any Cliques on here, different folks with different likes maybe, but thats a good thing surely?
We all share a passion for music in its multitude of forms, that in itself should bring us together as a community not create factions and friction.

Agree to disagree and 'chill'. Unless you are making a living from music its purely recreational .

errr..to paraphrase a certain Mr Shankley "music is not life and death....it's more important than that"...lol

@hulkamania78-"Viking I am to intelligent for you guys"-on that basis alone i am sceptical?
secondly-i am at a loss to see how you can equate a factual challenge to your assertions, with the ensuing adverse reaction when you, apparently, dismiss those facts out of hand, to cyber bullying?
oh-and -shouldn't that be "give a FUCK"??
i rest my case.

Posted by Duke Bocks - 17/01/2010, 22:15 (GMT)

errr..to paraphrase a certain Mr Shankley "music is not life and death....it's more important than that"

Once told the previous Mrs Keef, "If you stick that Feckin Manilow crap on again your DEAD !!!!" So, yep it can be a matter of life or death LOL

Mr Hulk !

Please name just one venue that has ceased trading based on its refusal to move with the musical times !

:O)

oo oo oo I know one !!!.. The Levenshulme and District Charlestone Club ..ha!

@ duke bocks-and, of course-the "wheeltappers and shunters club", ilkley? ;-)

Seriously I can name one !
The North Walsall Co-operative Hall. Some one should have told them those Tea Dances were a step too far.

You don't see The Good Old Days from the Leeds Variety these days do ya?!!
Willow

From "Hulkmania" ..."Viking I am to intelligent for you guys" ... in that case, it should be "Too" ..
Apart from your Grammar, some good points in your posts ...

@The Imposters - no need for a capital "G" in grammar. (or for that matter a capital "T" in too)

Merely to stress my point CHS, he did indicate he was more intelligent than others ..

Lmao lads!

Thats at the grammar lesson not you Rob

Hulkamania.

Read the posts about the way a venue needs to assess it's area and the viability of having music on.

You appear to be conveniently ignoring them in your mission to "have the crack" with the classic rock bands.

Although I'm not surprised. The reason for this blog WAS a thinly veiled dig at them wasn't it (notice the lack of questionmark at the end of this sentence).

"I used to regularily go to the Market Tavern in Altrincham some of the best musicians I have ever seen aboslutely tremendous but after the first ten minute solo with the guitarist playing with himself over it."

We stopped playing The Market Tavern because all we got all night long was "play some DC!!!" We were asked, nay TOLD, by the landlord to play some DC or he wouldn't pay us!"

You try and play your Arctic Monkeys/Oasis at The Market Tavern and see what happens!

Wolfpack have made a bit of a reputation by playing 'different' songs by the well known classic rock bands. It's a formula that has served us well and from what I can see there's a lot more bands tying to do the same thing now. To say that the bands need to take a look at themselves is stupid! We play what we play because we've got a genuine passion for it. The venues are giving the punters what they want. It is down to you as a punter to tell the venues what you want to hear and for them to then come up with the bands but you'll never get us changing as we're out and out rockers.

I reckon bands should focus on what they're good at, and are passionate about. There's no point us trying to outdo the classic rock bands at Lizzy etc, cos that's what they're good at. The 2 singer/guitarists in Delirium are very good at grunge/alt/metal type stuff and focus mainly on that era (late 80s onwards). To keep the variety we throw in the odd Rainbow/Sabbath/Van Halen/Maiden/Kings Of Leon track as well.

I'm sure if bands focussed on what they're good at, surely venues would have a really good choice of genres? Also worth noting that in Yorkshire, most of the punters going to music pubs seem to be those with disposable incomes, maybe whose kids are a bit older so the audience seems to be 40+ and really into classic rock - still in demand.
JON

I think in reality it's more to do with the fact you can get enough booze to drink yourself to death from the supermarket for a tenner, thanks to grossly unfair taxing and a brewery stronghold. Though in saying that, the clubs and bars in the centre of major cities seem to do alright and they charge an arm and a leg for drinks (e.g. £7.50 for a double vodka + mixer).

I guess people just don't like going to their local anymore and would rather spend their nights packed like sardines in a chav-infested grief-holes.

I don't think classic rock is killing pubs, if the classic rock bands weren't doing at least a modicum of good for the trade the pub would just book different genres of cover band instead. Not all pubs are total classic-rock hives. It can also depend what punters are in what night too. One night the same pub might be full of people who love the stuff, other nights a load of indie kids and another night some nutters who'd actually like listening to Film One... possibly if some residents escape from a local asylum and fancy a pint that is!

I think if people on here spent less time on here arguing why pubs are shutting (and there's no definitive one reason..pubs have been shutting since the 50's...look at an old map of your town and see how many pubs have disappeared)
anyway...spend more time actually going to pubs that DON'T have 'live' music on and suggest they start putting it on! I do to a certain extent with the Buskers Ball.
If all the bands on here went to just one of these pubs/clubs and got a trial 'season' going...that would be 200+ new venues (or whatever).
Maybe be a bit more ambitious and actually approach the pubco's/breweries en mass as NWB (probably do no good, but then again it could...and its worth a shot (mine's a whisky n coke)

like i said alec a nwb outing/piss up

mmmm...tempting, butmight be better approaching these places sober though LOL

Fare enough , but then we get pissed ehh ?

There's no chance round my way, it's the NIMBY capital of the world. The even took a petition to the council and the government over development of a playground on some wasteland as it'd cause noise and "antisocial behaviour"! Rock music's got no chance!!!

Me n Rob from Metalleeka arranged a NWB piss up last summer.
Me n Rob from Metalleeka were the only ones that bloody turned up
Me n Rob from Metalleeka probably won't bother doing that again!