NWB - Community Blog

We've been gigging for less than 3 years so our money has gone up each year as we've improved [same for bookings in 09]. I think £200 is the minimum a decent band should be paid for a normal pub gig, perhaps with a reduction if the venue provide PA and soundman.
We still do a few freebies for charity, entirely on our terms, usually with all equipment except guitars provided.
We might also do the occasional gig slightly cheap if there are very good reasons.
Even if we don't always need the cash, we hold out for decent pay so as not to undercut other bands.

With regards to cover bands, just because we enjoy what we do, and we choose to do it, should not make it cheaper or worthless to others.

We all spend countless hours practicing, as well as investing time and money into promotion and equipment. Money from gigs do not cover my costs, money from gigs is more of a token gesture for all the hard work and effort put in to get there.

If you enjoy or love your daytime job, I'm sure you wouldn't mention to your boss (s)he can pay you less!

I've commented on this issue a couple of times previously on NWB and in one instance it got a bit heated.
But my stance is still the same...I'm doing this for the fun of it and as long as I can make a little bit of money to cover fuel, maintenance and new equipment costs then how can I possibly complain.
How many people can say that they have a "hobby" that you get paid for doing?

And for me, it IS a hobby I make no appologies for it.

We, as a band, will still initially ask for what we used to get, but are now far more flexible in terms of accepting what venues are willing to pay purely because money is becoming very tight.
I would rather play 10 gigs at £150 than cut off my nose to spite my face and only go for venues that will pay £200+

Sorry Matt, but I have to disagree with your comment about money from gigs not covering costs. We have earned over £4000 this year with a majority of the gigs paying £150 doing 2-3 gigs a month. we have pretty much kitted the entire band out this year and still have money in the kitty. To say that £150 - £200 doesn't cover costs to me is nonsense.

I expect I'll get a total flaming for my comments but that's nothing new.

hiya one point i really wanna make is to Mr NWB, ever since i joined this site its never ever been lost on me how helpful this site is (as a band community, to find musos, for gossip, tips etc etc) and that you do it cos you obviously love music, just wanna say thanks buddy, and i know its not much but i will stand you a pint when you come down to watch us at the Garrick on 25th Oct with Woody, its the least i could do

kind regards

p.s on the gigging money issue my personal stance is yes its a lot of work we put into it, but its great to be paid for doing something we love, and we MUST work together with venues to keep the gig thing going as well it does, venues are never against us,theyre paying us for goodness sake, which they rightly should for all the hard work and time, but of course we owe it back to be profesional, friendly and foremost to put on a good show!!

things are tough out there, but i worry that it may (the credit crunch etc etc blah blah blah) start to be used as an excuse a lot by everybody for all kinds of stuff..(and i dont mean gigs and landlords i mean in general society)
ever the hopeful cynic

Rob

.re HARE OF DOG .. on the gigging money issue my personal stance is yes its a lot of work we put into it, but its great to be paid for doing something we love, and we MUST work together with venues to keep the gig thing going as well it does, venues are never against us,theyre paying us for goodness sake, which they rightly should for all the hard work and time, but of course we owe it back to be profesional, friendly and foremost to put on a good show!!

Well done ROB i think thats the sentiment that we're all trying to say ....................arent we ????

Sad to see that so many venues are closing down or stopping bands but luckily a new (sometimes better) venue seems to spring up nearby.... Most of the gigs we've booked for next year are for more money ,and again as WolfPack say everyband has a minimum they go out for and this year if a venue doesnt meet that minimum we're not gigging there.... so that stops any debates on these issues !!
We try to give the punters a good show thats well played (!) and value for money and luckily it pays off ..the punters fill the pub and the landlord/managers respect that ....even if its down to a couple of free pints !!!
.......shit weather int it !!!

Got to agree with mr.nwb

We all know who the poor payers are,(sometimes with good reason I might add) but at the end of the day we choose whether or not to take the gig.
I still think it's a good idea for us all to be open with each other.To be honest I couldn't care a toss if the next band get an extra tenner over us.Let's face it.............we can't all be the best can we?

We would be more than happy to pay some sort of fee, considering the amount of gigs we have got from NWB over the past 6 months.
The only problem with subscription is that it turns puts a lot of people of using the site. ( I know I don't like using subscription sites)
What about setting up some sort of donation link to paypal or something like that, then maybe come up with some sort of unwritten rule like 5% of every gig received through the NWB site.
Obviously it'll require honesty and there would be people who would abuse it but as you know, nearly all of the bands on here an genuine and I think would be more than happy to compensate you for your time and effort in keeping the site up and running.

I really must learn to check my spelling before posting lol

What pay a fee to Mr NWB.............Never ;)

I get more money since he left the band too.....Wahey.

On the subject of monies for gigs, how do bands feel when they
know that some other bands are getting more money than them playing
the same venue. obviously if a band brings a coachload of people with them they probably deserve to get more but i know that dosen't happen with every band.

Well, it's very clear that many pubs are facing hard times. It's not only the credit crunch though - their demise started when smoking was banned. We do a lot of gigs around the country, and our observation is that pubs hosting gigs generally fall into one of two camps (1) the landlord is trying to create revenue by booking bands (2 ) the place aleady has a reputation as a venue. In the first instance, they dont want to pay too much unless you can 'bring a crowd', and in the second place, they have their established levels of fees.
Our experience is that we go along with the fee system for established venues, and if the landlord is please with the revenue generated he will rebook the band at the same fee.
The only bands who may be affected are the bands regularly appearing at the same pubs month on month, and the audiences get tired of seeing the same stuff, so the place becomes quiet and the landlord stops booking.

Oops.
Mad idea #2 -
Mr NWB sets up a booking applet (if thats what its called) like hotel booking sites have.
Venues can book bands registered to NWB using the applet.
Bands set themselves a fee, for bookings through NWB, and pay a percentage to NWB for the service.
We'd pay 10% for that.
Booking fees could then be banded (scuse the pun) £150, £200, £250, £300. The venues would then choose accordingly.

We're a fairly new band, and trying to get our foot in the door of a few venues is not easy. We can see it from the venue's point of view, they don't want a band to empty their pub, but even offering our services cheap brings back little response. So we have discussed playing for free on the first booking and then for an agreed fee on subsequent bookings. Even so, just £150 out of the bar till at the end of the night is a substantial lump and if they don't think a band can regain those losses they're going to be reluctant to book. We all play in bands because we love music and enjoy the social side of it, to keep this alive we should make our servcices as cheap as possible to allow venues to afford us and thus allow us to do what we love......play great music.

keep the faith Radar, just some of the ol British Bulldog spirit will pay off, really pester the venues ha ha, and big yourself up, and itll be only a matter of time dudes that youll win those new peeps over, (im not saying were even there yet either though ha ha)

Like Radar we’re also a relatively new band to the scene and I see it like this: we can be flexible on fees to help continue our progression OR dig our heels in and get very few gigs. Most venues have been really good with us, relative fees are agreed with no problems and we get to do what we love. There’s only been 1 occasion where we were paid less than agreed, not exactly surprising given the current climate – in which case we’ll be cautious if they wish to book us again.

In the last 6 months our fee money has bought us a new PA/speakers, backdrop, lights, Cds and posters – we really can’t argue at this stage. A little common ground between bands and venues can go a long way – like most we don’t do it for the money but we know what we’re worth. As long as people continue to come watch us, both we and our venues should remain satisfied.

Ah the age old problem of payment.. I've been fortunate enough to get quite good payments for gigs with my old band but there have been times (espeically pay on the door jobs) where we got ripped..

The thing is.. Even if it's for the pure enjoyment of playing music you love to an audience you should be paid a good enough rate for it.. If you were a plumber and you had to travel 30 miles to do a job, would you do it for £20?

Square one:
The thing is.. Even if it's for the pure enjoyment of playing music you love to an audience you should be paid a good enough rate for it.. If you were a plumber and you had to travel 30 miles to do a job, would you do it for £20?

-----------------------------------

Sums up what we're all thinkin - although we love doing this we shouldnt have the p*ss taken out of us.

One other factor to take into account is how many people there are in the band. £150 for a 3 piece is £50 each but only £30 for a 5 piece band like ourselves. I understand that from the venue's point of view, a band is a band but it's simply not viable for us to accept gigs at that price.

I've found that thesedays it is more common for bands to get ripped off. When I joined my first band we never had a problem getting money from venues but in my current band we've been ripped off at pay at the door gigs a lot lately.

We're quite lucky n that we only really look for an average gig a wek and we always seem to have more dates filled than venues to play but i shouldn't alter the fact that the bands are the ones bringing the punters in and as such they should dictate the terms, not get greedy mind, but if you are confident in your ability then never sell yourselves short. If you're worth £200 a gig then never go out for less unless its on yor doorstep. The reunited Wolfpack went out for £150 in 2007 because no one knew who we were and now we demand anything from £200 to £250 in 2008 and we get it, we're not ashamed cause we put on a fecking good show and we invest back in lights, PA, drums blah blah plus we advertise wih Rock Radio and print flyers, posters. What was this thread about anyway ha ha?

Some really good debate in this thread. Most important part is Venues and Bands working together. If not..........we will all end up as bedroom musicians.
Any venue that stitches a band up is not doing themselves any favours. The word will spread and no-one will play there. If said venue relies on a band night to fill the coffers they will then be sunk.
Some areas seem to have suffered more than others. Warrington had shed-loads of pubs putting on live music every week. Not many still doing it and some cracking venues have stopped.
It was common to see £300-350 for a Gig 3-4 years ago, but there aren't many of those around now.
As a band that also does Function work it is not neccesarily more lucrative. OK the bottom line money is better but usually you have to be set-up and sound checked before 7PM, (or even earlier if it is a wedding), and kick your heals for hours. Might not finish until the early hours of the morning. Work the hourly rate on that.
As someone who has been gigging for 40+ years, (albeit with a break in-between), I found an old artist list from our agency in 1967 that was published in a book called Manchester Beat Vol 4. There was no fee against us, (by arrangement??), but the dearest band was £15. In real terms this now represents £190.35..... Bearing in mind the £15 for an 8 piece Soul Band was considered OK, even at £200 average now, we have at least come some way in 40 years.

this is because some bands are doing gigs for less than £150.
This is not good for the rest of us who are top bands

3-fold, I did say in my earlier post that I thought that £200 should be the minimum for a decent band for a normal gig. That was a strong hint as to what we're charging at the moment! Some venues pay more, and conversely we'll accept slightly less if a venue does the sound for us. We won't accept very low fees as this undermines pay for other bands. E.g. The New Roscoe in Leeds has a great stage with good lights, backdrop etc and the feel is more that of a club, but they only pay local covers bands £120 which we won't take.

Ok here's another take on it. The majority of muso's on here have full time jobs and music is a hobby. A friend of mine chooses to play 5 aside footy as his hobby. So while we're in a nice warm pub supping ale, pounding out our tunes AND getting paid for it. He's frozen, piss wet through outside in the dark, and he PAYS for the pleasure. We don't do badly really, do we?

Yea but..one chooses ones hobbies.. i have played my share of footy, the most expensive bit of kit i ever bought was a pair cross trainers i think they were Patrick for £45... when i said i have spent a grand at dolphin recently i meant it...n it had nowt to do wi sponge bob or his square pants..so i would like to cover the cost of my outlay at least..and radar..your buddy could hunt out a covered 5 a side venue.. ;-)

As was stated earlier if we all went out at £200 minimum we would all have something to work with.
TBH we get more at most of our gigs but at least no other bands would be ripped off.
Especially gigs up to 50+ miles away with the cost of fuel time spent etc.

£150 maybe, but I'm not gonna throw a gig away just cos they wont pay an extra £50

Just a thought here ....... some good comments have been posted by all .......... The thing I always think of is .....evn if its only £20 you walk away with at the end of the night ......youre being paid to enjoy yourself .... everyone else in the pub is paying to enjoy themselves ...... even on a bad paying gig that thought will get you through the night !!! lol

I notice that of the 40 odd adds to this thread that there isnt one from a venue..just wondering what their thoughts are on this particular issue..any takers venues???

I think if a venue DID come on here to comment on this one, they would say what we all know to be true: Times are tough. people are not spending lots of time and money in pubs (due to the smoking ban and the general ongoing problems with the economy).

Some venues struggle to put bands on and take about enough to break even and hopefully make the cash up from other nights of the week. Some venues do best on nights when the have live entertainment on.

We live in different times now than we used to - with banks folding etc - venues have to be tight with their budgets, as they have livings to earn.

most of the venues would not comment because i think what a lot are doing is out of order. if a price is agreed it should be paid, you work hard for it. we know you enjoy doing it and what a great hobby as most of you have said. cutting corners by paying less will not encourage bands to play at there venue, takings in the pub will go down, venue closes.... credit crunch gets the blame. any band that has played here are well looked after, that is what we call working together. better sign off before we say too much, think we might get slated from other venues. ( not the ones that treat bands good )
dee and dave

Hiya Dee N Dave… your bang on and I think that as long as we support each other, venues and bands alike, it will make getting through these tough times easier, I speak as one of a band of 5 members and to a man I would guarantee support to a landlord/venue who after treating us properly, by properly I simply mean sticking to agreed terms and conditions etc, we don’t expect, free beer, or food…its always very welcome mind, specially on Friday evening when you haven’t had chance to get a meal before your packing your gear to travel to the gig ..but back to my point if a decent landlord/venue hit harder than usual times and said to us. help us out we would be willing to..
Like you said its about working together…we have done stand in gigs at very short notice, licensee has said “Thanks for stepping in we will return the favour, be in touch to book you proper” its never happened…now if we had gone down like a sack o shit I would understand it be we went down well, we always do!! Consequently if they were to ask us to step in at short notice again we would hesitate. However due to the state of the game presently they would easily get someone else…they would probably make the same promise to the stand in band and the vicious circle continues….this is turning into war and piece now.. I’ll shut up.
Regards.
G.

gotta say Dee and Dave at Hindley Arms your attitude and motivation towards bands and gigs is first class,wish there were more like you out ther!, had a good chat with you on the phone on Thursday,you sound as nice a bloke as your reputation proceeds. hope to be down at your gaff for a gig real soon

Rob from the Dog

well I gotta stick me two pennorth in...I gig for a living and while I understand that some people just do it for beer money, that does not excuse the "doing it for the crack" attitude. If all bands and venues worked together I am sure that a reasonable solution could be reahed...ok if your just doing it for beer money, make that plain and be happy with your twenty quid at the end of the night..maybe the venue would then pay a 4 piece band 120 and what they save on that gig they can pay reasonable money to people who do this for a living. I am not meaning to upset anyone or pee anybody off..but if I were a shop owner and decided to sell things cheaper than the next man and that put him out of business, he would quite rightly be upset about this.. There is a limit that is acceptable but some bands AND venues alike abuse this. Its a real shame cos yeah I do love what I do and I feel priveliged to get paid for it..but at the end of the day I have bills to pay like everyone else. I put a lot of time / effort and money into my act..I make all my own tracks and supply what I think is a pretty good show...so bands please bear this in mind when you are doing a gig for 20 quid each you could be undermining somebody else..
All that said , I have never been short of work but I do know people who are, and its a sorry state at the moment..
A note to venues...we all love playing..thats why we do it...but you wouldn't ask a builder to to a wall and then not pay him full amount cos he enjoyed it...
The hindley arms sounds like the type of venue we need more of..never gigged there, would hope to at some point if they don't think I'm a spoiled brat stamping my feet after this article..but hey...opinions....we're all entitled to em...lol.....
As I said no offence is meant to anyone...but you do get what you pay for ....in MOST cases...rant over...ha ha

hi y'all - venue here replying to what has been said above. been interesting reading what bands have to say about venues/landlord etc and hadn't realised what a tangled web it seems to be. the punch bowl is a smallish pub when it comes to live band venues BUT i like live bands and put one of every saturday night. however this is purely for a business reason as without the entertainment, sat nights would be dead as the pub is out in the sticks and with the smoking ban and cheap supermarket drink debate still with us, then i have to earn my crust somehow. as to the price of bands, i try and operate on about £200 - £250 for a band depending on where they come from, how well known they are, what type of music they play. some of our local bands play a little cheaper but they are only travelling yards not miles. price is agreed up front by fone or text and as long as they havent souped themselves up to beyond regonition then thats the price i pay, and happy to do so. pubs today are struggling in the main and what ever we pay out we look to take back in roughly 3 times that amount - 1/3 for the band, 1/3 for the extra staff/overheads and hopefully 1/3 for profit(before the taxman cometh). so for a 250 band we need to take 750 at the till over what we would normally take without a band. at average price of beer of 2.60 that means 288 pints to be sold or 70 odd more people drinking 4 pints each. don,t get me wrong though, many sat nights have been below this but i still put on the bands cos i like em, it puts atmosphere into the pub, people are out enjoying themselves and hopefully we make a name for ourselves for the future. so in essence, as long as bands don't overprice themselves, play a good gig and enjoy the gig themselves, and us as landlords try and accomadate costs and travel within reason then there is every chance that live music will stay around for years to come no matter what the government try and do to kill the pub trade off!!!!!

and so say all of us...well done to the punch bowl...its good to hear things from the venues point of view...I must say that you are one of the decent paying venues around and about....any chance of a gig for a solo artist...ha ha blatent plug...but hey thats what the sites here for....wish you all the best and long may you continue

as a fellow venue, and ive had my say well said punch bowl. hope other venues take note. thanks to all the bands for there comments. dee and dave

I think most Landlord/ladies have (like Dee and Dave) set a up a good gig venue. Your right about the agreed fee. It should stick. It should only be negotiable at least 24 hours before the gig. That way the band are aware before they turn the ignition key....
Hats of to those venues that go that extra mile!!

Ooh can I make a suggestion ? How about bands playing 1 longer set and finishing 1/2 hour ealier ? Lost count of the amount times during the break between sets when I've been asked 'When are you back on...?", sometimes I get asked as soon as I have stepped from behind the kit !!

That would be nice but we recently got told by one landlord that if we didn't play until midnight(last orders) then he wasn't paying us! We had already done a first set of 50 minutes and 1 hour and 15 minutes inc encores and it was 11.55 and we thought he was joking...He wasn't! We then did something we never so & did, gave in to the crowd and played 'Highway To Hell' I hate that song nowadays because every one else does it & i fooked it up big time but it took us to past the midnight hour. Then again there's other places where they will gladly pull the lug on you if you're still banging out the tunes at midnight so I think it's fair to agree all round to be off by midnight but we got told recently that The Nags in Macc is now looking for bands to only start their 1st sets at 10.30pm because punters are drinking at home and not coming in until then so you'll be looking at a 1am finish there as it's open until 2am.

Some interesting points and opinions. I have mine too and I'll probably get slated for it.
I have seen a good majority of bands on here and a fair few that are not and I can clearly tell in some cases (not all) when a band plays
for a hobby to the bands that play on a more professional level/attitude but, one thing for sure is that you all earn your money whether your a £150, £200 or £250+ band. You all have admirable talent but some bands are just better than others and thats it. That goes with any profession, plasteres, brickies etc.

I feel sorry for the two venues that have commented on this blog, its people like you that deserve success and support and I'm sure you will get it.
About the Nags in Macc. Yes it a late finish but Steve and Sandra pay handsomely for it and as well as it being one of the highest paid venues, they are probably only one of a few that increase the pay yearly, they deserve their say when it comes to playing times etc...
How many of you muso's when not playing take the time out to go and watch another band and see what else is out there and also show support to the venues you need?

just wanted to say that when we're not gigging i know for a fact that if not all of us at least one of us will be out watching a band. we are fans of live music and you can learn something from any live band, no matter how good or poor!
nuff said! ;-)

Thats one thing i make a conscientious effort to do, i will ..'significant others' shifts permitting..(shes a nurse). i will try and get to watch more than one band, my last foray was some weekends ago..were i watched some of One in Ten..brilliant band... then The Micro Dots. then sadly a poor chap with some backing tracks and an acoustic guitar, who, including me and said 'significant other' was playing to a crowd of six... So i do try Shell i do... i've even PAID to watch Riff Raff (the original) expensive night out that was....LOL

In reply to Shell..I do...I have a local pub that putson live music every wed and if I'm not playing I'm there supporting the venue as well as the acts..I also go to another not so local pub that has music every tuesday...this is a 45 min drive for me but I tink if they can be bothered to put music on tuesday nights they deserve all the support I can offer. This is now my adopted local and I'm good friends with most of the people who go in...an I get a couple of tuesday night gigs from it a well...everyones a winner

I know a lot of you do and I know quite a few that never do.

Where has bands on on a Tuesday, may pop down but I don't really want to travel more than a 40 mile round trip on a work night as I find it hard to leave at a reasonable time if the band are still playing...lol

Me and Ian will def come and support...

Its a place called the ranken in hoddlesdon near darwen, small pub not many punters but mainly musos in there, if you manage to get there on the 14th oct you will see the other touching cloth duo. Like I said small pub but real friendly..not in a deliverence kinda way though lol...if you make it down come an introduce yourselves an we'll have a beer or two

Was talking about ranken Arms only last night bout calling up for a gig ..we used to play there regular along with the Crown,Marigold & Millstone when Lorna was our Bassist .......

The Clan is a grand (£1000) anyone wanna book us---

Weddings and corporate its the future!!

we will have some of that !!

Taking radars comment on 5 a side footy as a hobby. When was the last time you thought..Ok..lets go out tonight..wonder if theres a good game of 5 a side anywhere? Some really interesting comments here. We never do pay at the door gigs..book us..pay us.I will admit being a duo the money does go further and it means we can keep the fee down and still come away with some pocket money.

our cheapest band on a friday or sat would be £150 for first Gig if we have never seen or had a reveiw of them and the max is £250. We do have one or 2 more in which we pay more but we put a charge on the door to try and cover costs. to us as a venue £150 is needing to sell 300 pints jsut to pay the band not including gas electric bar staff, door staff ect ect. I do beleive alot of bands think we are rolling in it but its far from it. we can get a dj for £50 to play all night and pull the same money and numbers. we just beleive we get a better more behaved crowd when it comes to bands and thats why we put them on. remember £250 is selling 500 pints! see it from our point of view!Lee

Could be a lot worse. Although "Pay to Play" was outlawed years ago, there are a few venues who try to get around it in someway.

In 2001, a band I was in played at the Half Moon in Putney. True, it's a legendary venue, but sadly for me it's for all the wrong reasons.

It was £5 in for the punters who got three bands. On their way in, they were asked about who they had come to see. We had to sign a form to say that if less than 15 people came to see US, then we may be asked to fork out £45 for the sound(!)guy.

"Don't Know" or "not bothered" didn't count either

A lot of the places I played at in the south east, you either had to work the door yourself, or simply DON'T get paid. The Barfly@The Monarch in Camden had a condition that you didn't play in Central London two weeks either side of that date - and they didn't pay either. It sucks, but it happens.

I understand that venues need to keep their heads above water, but try meeting the bands halfway. Most of the venues around here are run by people who love live music and want to see it continue. Bands who ask £200 are far from being un-reasonable. Not when you consider the amount of hard work that goes into giving the punters a good show.

BTW if I get slammed at a venue, I won't play there again, and will post a report of it on here as soon as I get home!!!

Hey look at it from my perspective I'm in an originals band, same amount of practise, petrol too and from gigs and also write, arrange and record the songs.
We're lucky to even get a venue to pay us at all, ( even struggle to get petrol money and a drink)

What should we do stop playing?

we have all gone down the original song road and alas even though we can regard ourselves as being 'more talented' than a straight covers band ...the audiences are more fickle esp with the multimedia onslaught of established bands playing old/new songs that people will listen to.....the new original bands have to slog it out and try to win an audience in the dingy bars round manchester ..with hopefully enough wages to pay for yr parking ticket......in my old band Lights Out based in Poynton we did covers then put our original stuff inbetwwen ...then after a few gigs we were getting shouted out requests for our own stuff........thats bloody 30 year ago .....arrgh ...Nurse!!!
But getting back to the point same people,same gear ...the punters want to hear wot they know...and pub venues know this ...simples!!!

I second that!
bin there got the tshirt binned it!

The Band I mentioned above was an originals band. We ended up chucking in a smattering of covers just to keep people interested.

I remember playing at Finnegans Wake, opposite Brighton Station, when halfway through "Breakfast At Tiffanys" la load of people walked in. Then we did one of our own - and they all left.

Just an extra point...we have played for some (luckily, not many) venues who messed us around regarding pay, but I want to say a big thank you to the venues who stumped up extra cash for us when we had the place packed to the rafters. To be told at the end of the night 'You played so well, we'd like to give you an extra £10/£20' shows real appreciation and decency. A couple of places have done this for us, and although it's not necessary, it's always nice to be appreciated and to know that you've done a good job and that this has been noticed by the landlord! So cheers to those venues (you know who you are!) Also, thanks to the vast majority of venues we play, where landlords are friendly, ameniable and accommodating and stick to what had been previously agreed! Rock on!

aresole glasshopper..if you remember this and remember nothing else...my old man played in dance bands in the 40's and 50's and he told me this..and it still applies.. people dont always know what they like..but they like what they know..here endeth the lesson

I only just glanced at the title of this blog and thought it said 'air guitars getting cheaper?!' I was like, well d'uh...... Anyway. Sorry, everyone, carry on! :-) Ann x

Always a difficult subject this one. Personally i have been out the saddle for just over a year, been in a few bands who got paid at most £1,200 and at least £200, depending on venue, event and band etc. Fortunately, i never had dealings with a bad or dishonest landlord or venue. Unfortunately, the dishonesty or underhandedness i witnessed actually came from other band members! We all want to enjoy what we do and others to enjoy us, however i don't believe in selling the band short, maybe only in certain circumstances to help others out. However, to get back in the saddle with an unknown band no matter on the quality and in the present climate, i feel i am going to have to sell us short initially to try and get our feet in the door or at least get known. I know its a risk for landlords and appreciate its tough especially at the moment, but many of us do put a lot of time, effort and money into our bands and equipment and do like to see a reasonable return on our own investments

I remember this discussion from last year - the situation is still the same. Some venues pay what we want, some dont - do we just knock it on the head at those venue? Do we f**k we're doing what we love.

since i left the band fragile(split up),i have gone solo,the only layout so far was my new easy to carry ev speakers,i am getting between £160-220 per gig and i am playing classic rock,its a fucker when you think as a band this is what we went out for,long live rock n roll,.

Personally im in both camps on 1 hand i do it coz i love it and on tother its a second income as i like most of the uk earn a shite wage. I also did solo stuff in the past for decent money but didnt enjoy it 90% of it anyway!!!

We've found that if you branch out a bit (or sell out depending how you look at it!) it helps. We love playing hard rock and heavy metal stuff but we can't get enough venues to take us to fill the year. In my last band we played old rock n roll and some lighter stuff so we got some of that down and got an agency to find us some work in labour clubs. I must say a lot of those places are going down hill and they can be a bit depressing but you can get round the £300 mark to bang in the kitty for petrol and gear. Although we are quite lucky there's only 3 of us and we go everywhere in 1 van so the cash goes a bit further.
Also touch wood we have never had pay quarrels with any venue, always make sure you both are aware of the fee before you go.

(lately its also a good idea to ring a few days before to make sure the guy you booked with hasn't left the pub or its shut! That's from experience!)

From a venues point of view I would say that it comes with the band. Are they experienced and will put on a good show and in the end fill your coffers? Are they known in the local area where they will draw a good audience? Are they first timers at the venue? Are they new to the scene? All this goes through my head when booking bands and the general consensus that I have found is that bands are asking for more this year....costs have gone up I agree....but so have the venues costs too. Old faithful bands that I have dealt with and have had on time and again are still at the same price they were 12-24 months ago. new bands are the ones asking for more and also bands that are having to travel... again I know costs have gone up.... but do you want the gig. Maybe you could get a gig more local for the same fee and your layout for fuel etc is lower, then so be it. however don't try and screw the venue. Some bands that started for me at £150 for the first gig are now on a lot more than that and getting a good return booking from it because they have shown that they believe they are worth it and are prepared to take the cut to get the long term benefit. Others who are asking for a high end fee just don't get their foot in the door. At the end of teh day tehre are plenty of decent bands out there who know what they should be paid and are getting just that. There are those who are pushing the levels too high and there are also those who undercut themselves. As it has been mentioned above, you are doing this because you enjoy it, just to cover costs is enough for some, some want more to cover their summer hols. Whatever your reason for your fee, just make sure you are worth it. Most of my bands have been worth every penny. Keep on rocking

remember the tentative childhood days when we would have been glad for the opportunity to perform for free, but it has to be horses for courses, some venues make a mint by puting on live bands and shouldnt abuse it, some venues really struggle to pay the bands the smallest of fees

weve worked our arses off constantly for the last 5 years & not in a gay way lol!(over 480 gigs),we 1st started playing for nothing then free beers then our 1st paid gig was £100 WOW! ..& now luckly we can pick & choose our venues & its a massive learning curve but the more you play the better band you become & thats how you learn respect from other bands ,the venues & the audience & being reliable is a big asset ..just get out there & do it ...i wont go into the money thing at all ..but we have learned after all our hard work to avoid certain pubs & venues ..we"ve found out ,its up to you to go out & learn.

All new venues we go in for a price of £200-£250. If it's a working men's club we go in a little higher £300-£400, but we start with a certain price and are happy to get knocked down/negotiate. If we quote a price of £200, we're basically saying we're happy to play there for £150.

We try and get the highest amount possible from new venues but once we arrange a price with a venue we generally stick to it, unless part of the deal was the price would go up after the first gig. For example we are still playing venues now that we started playing three years ago when we first started out for £150, and we still take £150 at those venues because it's a good gig that we enjoy doing and we wouldn't want to lose the gig by lowering the price.

We used to do several venues for £100 when we first started out but now our minimum price is £150 although very occasionally we will drop to £140 if beers are thrown in. We also try and get the beer deal for £150 gigs. If you get £150 plus your beer then it's really not so bad!

And like a lot of people have said, it depends how many gigs you're doing. If you've got 2-3 a week and one's bringing in £150 the other's bringing in £200 and maybe another bringing in £180 then it soon adds up. We always have enough money in the band kitty at the end of the year to take everybody out for a Christmas meal, and we also buy stuff throughout the year - equipment, clothing etc. So yeah, it's all good.

as I said earlier- Weddings and Corporate its the future- get in with the bookers at football clubs- looking at £1000 average for that kind of gig- if your prepared to throw in a few cheesy songs-- we play anything and make that clear- (not the fabulous eggs the covers band I am in ) I love playing pubs the atmosphere etc- and you can play ROCK- and I like playing acoustically at a pub to - sing along!!

I have lowered myself to playing a set with Cliff Richards songs in- even Wet wet wet- but £1000 between 4 for 90 minutes - get in!!

Just spent ages reading this blog and found it interesting hearing from the banda and venues point of view however, there is another point of view from the promoters. We book both the bands and the venues and have to pay for both out of the door takings, obviously if we can get a band to play cheaper it,ll mean fewer people through the door before we are into profit.In the present economic climate ours is a risky business but we do it for the love of live music Having said that I would never renage on an agreed price for a band and usually throw in a beer or two for good measure.

Well said and again i think we all need to help each other at the mo and for the forseeable future as things are gonna get worse , we all know that .so a bit of give and take is the key

Trig

DAKOTA

Hi all, just wanted to echo the sentiments of the post from The Stories. There are five of us and a van to support, some places can't go over £200 for a live band - and that's fair enough - we don't want them to lose money. You build up a regular circuit of venues that get busy when you play so your value to the venue increases and you can ask for a bit more cash.

We try to be flexible and often do a first gig to fit in with the venue's budget then if they think we're worth rebooking at a sustainable cost then all well and good, if not we both move on.

We all do it for the love of it - if you can run a van, have a few beers, get new strings/sticks/mics/PA etc once in a while then everyone's happy.