NWB - Community Blog

Point well made Al...the pub scene has well and truly gone down the pan! There are the gems around but the majority are struggling. It's a crying shame cos like you I have watched a few bands of late (not as many as I might add) and there are some fekkin great musos/talent out there.

We just gotta keep pluggin away my friend and eventually the cream will rise.....

I'm afraid this is something which I feel very strongly about so this is a long and possibly rambling post and were anyone to flame based on any particular subsection then...

No disagreement in principle here. There is a difference for me though in that these sort of shows have always been a staple of media programming, particularly with music, as the key business interest is simply shipping product and dare I say property has always been theft and in a society which idolises the thieves will remain self-perpetuating :-)

I could put on my best mechanical nasal drawl and start saying that this is in many ways the same mechanism, though not as successful, by which cover bands make their living however that is not the debate here.

The problem is more that the number of arbiters of taste, and the range of tastes demonstrated by the MTV masses (ie definition of talent), seems to narrow year on year.

Is there anything we can do to change or campaign against this? Its an honest though somewhat facile question but one which I would assume we all on this site feel very strongly about.

yep Almepal, couldn't agree more!!!.....sick of the drivel and worse is the stars of the shows are the fookin judges....WTF is all that about ???
TEX

Product placement

Bastard!! I knew you thought I was only a 7!!
hahaha

yep, totally agree Al ... but you know what, I would hazard a guess that not one band that you like has made it by way of television, and certainly not at the hands of Mr Cowell and his cronies. Let it go, it's not for US, if we don't like it we don't watch it, buy it, recognise it or support it.

The music biz isn't going to fall apart because of it and there's always going to be committed semi pro bands slogging up and down the country doing what they do cos they love it.

Be great if it could be different, but as long as that tart at Buckingham Palace keeps putting on a second rate end-of-the-pier variety show, we're stuck with it!!

Rock and roll is dead, long live rock and roll

(the COUNTRY'S favourite band is Led Zeppelin don't you know!)

Willow

Sorry Al, I started writing that bit and then added the bit at the top as to flames. No, I don't think there is a comparison beyond some pointless hypothesising and the motivation of the vast majority of people I have met from covers and tribute bands who do it simply for the pleasure (after all, there ain't that much of a living in it for anyone).

Sadly the edit button has disappeared so I can't make that bit a little less controversial, or plain delete it, but rest assured my issues lie with those who seek to fashion taste purely for personal gain!

Why dont they have band idol or band x factor instead of having kids that have to look good looking or pretty with blond hair and good teeth ( im knackered then)
as the priority over weather they have a great voice when most of the time they have average voices at best.And why do they think the whole world loves pop music and we cant get enough beyonce or westlife soundalikes.
I agree if this type of thing continues for some more years it could be the death of not just rock music but other forms as well. Ive got three kids and they have a varied taste music as i, but we all love rock and blues( not to be confused with R and B)kids want to hear rock music as well, weather classic , indie , metal etc .A lot of this stuff on x factor and the likes is boring manufactured factoryline MUSAC! fit for supermarket background music
Paul

@Willow......yea, but a strong 7 matey....;-P

Bastards the lot of yer!!

WillowapplyingforCowell'snextshow!!

@Aces n 8's....totally agree, was discussin this the other day sayin bands like Slade would really struggle to become a mainstream chart success in todays pretty boy fickle piss poor top 20 and unless our kids look to past music or dig deep into the non mainstream scene they are gonna miss out really

"..... 'if the face is photo ready and the voice is tweakable'.... "

Me Me Me Me!!!!

:0)>

A face only a mother could love!!
WtF

@Aces I remember reading a quote from some 80's hair American rocker which basically went along the lines of "when you are 18 there are very very few women, by the time you get to 30 there are thousands of them". Sadly the greybeard of the village is currently lagging well behind the May Queen!

Tex, was watching some Slade on something a couple weeks ago ... a live clip ... and I forget how much closer to "heavy" rock those top pop bands were back in the 70s. T Rex, Slade, Rod Stewart, Alice Cooper, even Sweet!! Hendrix had a no 1 ... think it started going really poppy mid 70s .... 75 76 by memory with the Osmonds, Cassidy etc etc.

Sell 3 singles now and you're in the top 10!!

Willowlikedtheolddays!!

Al ... i'll get some t-shirts when I can get one to fit me!!
LOL
WtF

@Willow, those were the days my friend....thank fook the Sex Pistols came along and threw the spanner in the works.....Tex

@Al......still shit hot though hey? oh to be 12 again Tex

@Outlaws - depends on whether you believe McLaren's myth or not :-)

Nice one al, I agree with this blog, and with the bit about cowell, I think he's a very clever businessman and knows what people want to be spoon fed definitely

@Egbert....to be honest I dont care, the chart scene at the time needed shakin up and the Punk scene certainly changed things for the better in my opinion, Just loved the 70's, oh to have a TARDIS....lol

@outlaws - couldn't agree more - although being born in 65 my experience may be tainted by the rosy tint of youth :-) Having to wait 'til 6.30 for the newsagents to open to buy some cigarettes and all them old style car badges to be collected...

Radio 5 is doing this discussion as we speak...

@Egbert....and you could get your ciggies in a pack of 5...lol

@Almepal........here here...or is it hear hear? .................... or ear ear?.....wheres Willow gone? lol

@Almepal....lol, yea they were called SEPS in our shop....Tex Adrag

Probably right there. Doing it in pursuit of the production of art or exploitation? So if I could repeat my earlier question is there anything that anyone feels we, wee cogs in a wider machine as we are, can do?

@Outlaws, loose number ten or Woodies :-)

The mainstream bland thing winds me up loads, but it's always been there and in a weird way is probably necessary to provide generic entertainment for the masses, it is frustrating, but I try just and ignore it and enjoy my cd collection, looking out for the occasional slice of music gold on the telly, the recent I'm in a rock and roll band,bbc4 vintage music repeats(rock family trees etc) Glastonbury , other concerts shown sometimes and jools holland so on and so forth

yep, dont watch the dross, dont phone in votes, dont buy the shite, support real, live music and teach yer children well...TEX

@Egbert...number 6 tipped......lol

@Outlaws but them filters detracted from the amount of rapid drags you and your mates could get in during break

sufferin for it now though......Tex Acoff

"teach yer children well"
Amen to that brother!

I'm trying to watch a film for fucks sake, will you all bugger off!!
Loosies!
Park Drive
half an ounce of golden virginia and a quarter of chewing nuts!!

Is Michael Clayton any good?? You lot have just spoiled Public Enemies!!

:0)
Willow

@Willow, its called multi-taskin, my wife reckons men cant do it, but I can do a crossword whilst on the loo, so she must be wrong...lol........Tex

Our "local" wouldn't split the Park Drives - or the Navy Cut. Shouldn't allow the virtual to infringe - err TV, err change of tack

:-)

Well said Al, couldnt of put it better myself! :)

I don't agree with the idea that Cowell is killing the pub scene.
Naff talent shows have been around since well before I was born (as pointed out earlier).
The better venues and the better bands will prosper, as always. So it's time to up your game brothers and sisters, more so now than ever (as everyone's skint).

Jon

@Delirium. When I started playing I could go out any night of the week and see at least two bands - more if I didn't stay in the same place! Cowell is a symptom of something else (weak, but my original wording sounded a tad heavy for me).

Why go out when the entertainment you want is available 24/7 and if you ain't keen on any particular "segment" you can always channel hop.

Bit of a loose connection between talent shows and the death of live music. Like your man said, talent shows have been around since day one.

I quite like the following quote......."Andy Warhol said that, in the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes. I think he misunderstood what was happening. I think what people are demanding is 15 minutes of fame every day. And mark my words, they will get it. That's where we're heading, whether we like it or not." - Josh Harris.

Sorry, I really do feel quite strongly about this subject and this will no doubt be reflected in what I write...

The rise of technology has given people the ability to be famous, or simply the centre of attention which is the most common driver, through the so called social networking revolution (some sort of oxymoron in there somewhere), Whichever way you look at it its grooming based on the opinion of a selected few.

I think we're actually discovering more genuine talent now than we ever have. You can't complain about the rise of technology, writing on a blog that gives you access to 1000s of people and vice verca. That's a little hypocritical.

I think the use of new technology is the antidote to the manufactured industry that has been created by the likes of Cowell. I'm not a fan at all, but I dare say that X Factor and BGT have inspired many people to follow their dream.

Also, you write as though people don't have the choice to switch off the tv and go out to be entertained.

I know - I deleted all my virtual presences about a month or so ago
:-) Don't get me wrong, my gripe ain't with technology, it goes a lot deeper than that.

The point is still that there remains a critical mass, a tipping point, where things move from niche to mainstream or at least experience a sufficient focus. In some ways its the BBC vs ITV argument.

I'll be honest, I think ours is a dying industry. It's not about money, it's not about tv, it's not about beer prices. It's about people's tastes.

Think what people were doing for entertainment in decades gone by. Times change.

As things move from niche to mainstream, so the opposite applies. Things that were mainstream remain popular with the few. The challenge for the likes of us is to change with the times. In a failing industry, only the strongest survive. That's why I'm glad we (for the most part) all pull together on NWB.

well to be honest I dont like any of the so called talent shows, reality shows whatever you want to call them, its not a talent show when the participants have tuition before they go on either they are good enough or they should`nt be on, I dont believe the results, and I dont watch any of them, I am a great believer in people getting there through being good and talented without being on one of these shows, however I am the only one in my extended family who does`nt watch them, and I dread it when either dancing on ice or strictly come dancing or the xfactor, big brother, and britains got talent start a new series and too make it even worse Im not a football fan either, I think the biggest reason for the decline in the pub scene is cheap booze in the supermarkets and off licences and these talent shows on almost every weekend.

Sorry Al, have hijcked your blog but feeling naughty now. Feel free to delete...

Why would anyone want you to sit at home drinking cheap beer rather than sitting in a pub (music, arrows, whatever) and being subjected to alternative world-views...

Get to bed you lot , school tomorrow
NIGHT NIGHT
Paul

AYP
Never has my 'sheeple' catchphrase been used so well....I agree 100%
I've just got back from Eccles where I went to support a NWB member....the 45's.....Bozz from Glam 69 was there too.....I'd driven (with Mrs LGIT) from Runcorn, I don't expect a medal but come on guys....support each other......
My long standing argument with the human race has been this.....the TV is the biggest tool of mass manipulation and hypnosis since the bible.....the general public will not get off their arses because it involves 'effort'.....and the price of a pint in a pub is forcing the sheeple to buy cheap beer from the supermarkets and stay at home.....'equality' between sexes means that women go out with 'the girls' more often and the cave dwelling blokes don't like it....so they ALL stay in......also, I think that the majority of the bands are lazy and don't advertise their gigs enough, my next door neighbour probably won't even know my band is playing 50 yards down the street.....unless I tell him.
Music has become disposable, does anybody give a shit anymore about OUR bands.....
We are all victims of the smoking ban, the recession, the government forced tax on alcohol and the elephant in the living room....the TV.
OK we can't go out every night, money is tight and we have kids blah blah....
But next time you have a poor turnout at your gig, maybe take a long hard look in the mirror.
Only the strongest will survive.....
I often make this statement on posters and in the local press.
Support your local bands....
Support your local venues.....
Cheers
Gary

I can see where youre coming from Al but, personally,i think most of the british public like to be spoon fed. If you go up to average joe in the pub or at work they don't even know about a lot of "real" music for want of a better phrase - if its not on Radio 1 playlist, or in the nightclub at the weekend then they dont want to know. Use Metallica as an example - they can sell out multi thousand seat venues in seconds - but average joe public doesnt know a song by them - cos theyre not mainstream commercial. They are not playrd on the radio (apart from Whiskey in the fookin jar on Rock Radio!!!) and its the same with pub bands - they/we generally appeal to people who like "real" music and our playlists reflect that. The other side of the coin, im not knocking it but personally i dont like it, is the pub live act who does pop songs and is usually a singer with a backing track. The spoon fed masses will usually think that is a fantastc live act but would walk out if somebody got on stage and started playing Enter Sandman on a real instrument.
Talent shows have been around forever but so has the commercial, marketed music industry - as soon as a band or artist gets big, every label has their own version of that artist or band.
As for the phrase "talent"... Westlife had 12 number one singles - the Who had none! would Dylan, the Pistols or Metallica have got through the auditions of the x factor?
Is the pub scene dying or growing? Mt adopyrd hometown, Bury, now has up to 5 live bands on a friday night - there used to be F all. Im not saying the venues are rammed, they aren't, but hopefully its a sign of things to come. On the positive side, pubs may become freindly "public houses" and the Chavs might all stay at home getting tanked up on cheap wife beater from Asda and watching BGT and X-Factor...

My mum and dad brought me and my brother up whilst running pubs, and i've actually had a few discussions about this with them recently.

When they had their first pub (which was 1978ish!) The price of beer was about 40p pint I think. It went up to 50p just as they moved into their second pub (81). Off-licenses were the only place you could buy beer outside a pub, and they were rammed full of punters every night of the week.

Contrast now. Beer in a pub is anything from £2.50-£3.50 per pint. Pubs are empty for large periods of the week. Supermarkets are allowed to buy up vast quantities of beer from an ever-diminishing number of breweries and sell at whatever price they like - some of it at a loss! (Which I thought was an illegal practice but hey-ho)

You can buy beer in corner shops, on the internet, supermarkets, hell, I think you can actually buy beer directly from the Thwaite's brewery in blackburn!

I would say since the early 90's, pub trade has dropped consistently, since the millenium more and more people have gatherings at their houses rather than going out on the town, and even when people do venture out, they'll get tanked up at home first to save the pennies.

Does it seem a coincidence that the rise of reality talent shows is happening as more and more people stop in? They obviously need - demand even entertainment, and Cowell and co (and the others, lets not forget them) are pandering to that. What they end up with, after the public have all voted for the acts (and paid good money for it too!) is a recognisable 'artist' who has cost them bugger all to market. It's a genius move really - make the people who will eventually buy our records and make us even more money pay to develop their public identity for us.

The sad truth is that there is a pub scene for local bands, and I don't think the quality of local bands has been as good, but look how many good venues are either closing, or have stopped putting bands on (reluctantly) because it's just not cost effective any more.

And then there's the smoking ban.......... How often have you heard 'we don't have bands on anymore - since the smoking ban, we show as much live sport as we can.' ? I don't smoke, but I can see the ban did a lot of damage to the licensed trade. Yet another reason why people stop at home - they can indulge all their vices there!

And now exhale.............

Mick

I don't think it's any more threatening than any other talent show. It's viewing figures are probably inferior to shows of the past like Opportunity Knocks. I think it's harmless fun and if the sheeple enjoy it, fair enough! I really don't like the high culture vs low culture thing as where do you draw the line?

What's killing the pub trade is the unholy alliance of the big four supermarkets and the breweries and the unfair taxation of alcohol in boozers compared with from shops.

That's a fair point but everyone's got PVR's and Sky+ these days, so it's easier to tape stuff and watch it later than it's ever been. You could even pause BGT and pop to the pub now and resume where you left off!

I think the disparity between the price of booze is astronomical, a crate of wife-beater is about £9 and a bottle of vodka is about £12 - essentially you could drink yourself to death for the price of a round in your average pub if you buy the booze from the supermarkets.

Going for a meal's a bit different, it's getting prepared for you and on the whole experience you pay dividends for rather than the social side of things.

I think a big problem is that way people socialise is very different than it used to be. People tend to go to each other's houses a lot more and have boozy do's or have one mad night in the city/town centre once a week (money permitting). I've noticed how quiet the pubs near me are midweek compared with a decade ago. Then again, I was out in Manchester on Friday and it was the quietest I've ever seen the place on a weekend night. Perhaps everyone's skint?

I dont really agree AL I know what you mean but I think pubs havent moved with the times. We played the Albion on sat in Burnage it was like something out of Life on Mars defo 70's throwback pub. Not the people but the venue itself. Pub chains like Weatherspoons are killing the local pubs as the price of everything is so high we go where the cheaper option is .

There was a pub down the road from the Albion that charged 1.70 a pint and the Albion only got busy after that shut. Its human nature to go fo a bargain. Why should you be paying 2.50 a pint when its the same drink but 80p cheaper. Dog eat Dog.

I think its down to most Breweries arent run like a pub anymore but as a profit and loss business. Gone are the days of the community spirit of a pub but now its fancy cocktails and stupid novelty drinks in bottles now.

Also As I have said before there is a double edge sword there as we al lplay my band ( WHATEVER) included play most music from an era gone by. I grew up listening to proper music Hendrix etc and am 31 but most kids about 18-24 unless there parents have taste dont know Free from there Led Zep.
Drum and base and crap R/B music is what the charts is about these days and yes BGT and the XFACTOR dominate the charts most of the year but that is down to the bands still left to produce something to get real musci back on track.
As my previous blog about classic Rock killing venues - I am correct and stick by it. Pubs like the Moses Gate / Market Tavern will always have Classic Rock etc but eventually whether you agree with me or not evolution is a fact of life. All our music will become only available at selected specialist venues.

Say in 5 years can you see a kid of 18 knowing AC/DC - honestly I dont think there will be many. As much as I am a gob shite on here at times I am right. Its about the pubs left on the scene seeing the oppurtunity thats why Wheatherspoons etc stick with the times and there pubs are catered to young and old and most family run pubs are going out of business cause there is nothing to attract younger generations into a pub where mild is the best selling beer. So you lose you audiece to city centres etc.

This maybe the most adult thing I have written .....then again!!!

I think pubs face a difficult problem really, there's still a sizeable market that want the life on mars style boozer which are often their core consumer base (the bitter drinking regular cornerstones of the place) and then there is a need to address what younger people want. But the problem of course is if you change, what do you change to? You'd risk alienating your regulars which would be the final nail in the coffin. Also, what do we turn the suburban pubs into?

I think that bloke that swallowed a locked padlock, a key and the bints engagement ring, undid the lock in his stomach,put the ring over the lock and locked it again then regurgitated it all should have won, bloody amazing!Not that I watched it of course...and anyway Al, to know it was shite you must have watched it all! LMAO

Totally agree with the posts above.

Mass market 'tat' evolved out of the 80's - probably using old 'get rich quick' techniques from artists of the 60 and 70's - there was now way of stopping it.

Cowell has a massive fortune at his diposal and a basic idea of brain washing/spoon feeding the moral majority with music 'that fits all AT ANY AGE'. Funding it through sponsorship and commercial advetising, media links etc. Xfactor/BTG/Dancing on whatever shifts quantities of newspapers and magazines too.

There always was going to be 'mainstream' music that will dominate the charts. Now with the digital age and 24 hour instant media it is SOOOO easy to manipulate and convey it. I doubt anyTHING can stop it, it will burn out and be replaced by the next decade of 'tat' - that Cowell and crew probably have planned/ready to execute!!

Outlook - bleak?

But then again. I think the majority of your joe public NEVER really want anything else and are quite happy with this lot -they are welcome to it. I doubt most 'music fans' WANT to understand a crotchet, a major chord, which cymbals Bonham played or what R & B stands for.

I'm also a firm believer that true artists and great songs will out live manufactured cack by decades.

I am pleased some people do not listen to the music I do as I think over commercialising will ruin it.

I turn the T.V. off when crap is on.

Live music won't save Pubs. Yes they can never compete with supermarkets and Bargain booze busters but I also don't think Public Houses will die out. I was in one last week that was four deep at the bar all evening a pint was £3.30.

Now if the price of property and the price of fuel dropped 50% that might help... :)

# Posted by hulkamania78 - 07/06/2010, 10:54 (GMT)

As my previous blog about classic Rock killing venues -

Not sure how that blog turned out but that's a sweeping statement.
I think too many classic rock bands playing the same songs might be a better reason... ;)

I see the arguments for pubs not moving with the times, it isn't just as simple as that. Don't you think if a landlord could charge the same as a supermarket, they would??? The reason Wetherspoons are so cheap is that they buy up vast quantities of beer at close to it's use-by date at a much-reduced price and hope to sell it quick. It wouldn't be feasible for everyone to do that now would it?!!

Most pubs in this country work on a tie system - in that they're tied to the brewery that supplies their booze. The place I work at, for instance, was recently de-branded (having been a Thwaite's managed house), and the lease for the business sold to a private investor.

When Thwaite's were taking all the profits, beer was charged at one price. Now it's effectively a tennanted business, the beer prices to us went up 20% immediately, and there have been 2 price hikes since (in 9 months!). Sounds fair I suppose? I mean Thwaite's aren't getting all the profits anymore. BUT - they now charge rent on the property to the tune of £104,000 per year. And you pay for any callouts to do with beer pumps etc etc etc where before they were part of being a managed business. Thwaite's has saved an enormous amount of money each year by leasing out these businesses, and effectively scrapping all of it's managed house support (to the tune of about 120 jobs).

And this is the case wherever you go - the traditional brewery tie system is so draconian and blatently unhelpful to the landlords who take on these businesses, it's untrue. Pub tenants simply can't compete with the chains and supermarkets, and are then told they're ripping people off - they're expensive yes, but they are working to a business model that means they sell beer at a profit, the same as everyone else.

I think in this day and age, with all the pubs closing down that are, with us in a recession, and in order to keep the industry alive, it's time the tie system was overhauled. Surely it would be better for the breweries to have a landlord in a pub taking a decent amount of money than have the pub empty? It would benefit everyone - buildings wouldn't stand derelict, landlords could earn a decent crust, the breweries would still get a sizable rent and plenty of money from beer sales, and best of all, maybe more pubs could afford to put on live entertainment!

Someone said elsewhere today that we should club together and open a 'North West Bands Inn' - I agree with that! A live music venue run by live music acts!!!

Mick

ps I don't agree 1% with the classic rock killing venues statement - in our own way, surely we all play music people want to hear? A song is popular because people bought lots of copies of it and it is well-known. A not-so-popular song is so because not many people bought it! You play to your audience.

Cooking, DIY, Soaps and talent contests - Fekkin hate them all, total rubbish. There should be more music progs on !

Rick.

@Mick 53 ... what you've pointed out at the start of your blog has been highlighted by my good self many times on here (and elsewhere). Maggie Thatcher told the breweries that they could not have so many tied houses and made them sell a huge percentage of pubs off. All in the name of free choice you understand. This, as you rightly point out, just led to the breweries creating Pub Companies which snapped up the licenses AND premises leading us to where we are today. A three tiered system with the pubco paying retails prices to the brewery for the beer (i.e. what the pub used to pay) and then needing a profit from the pub who have to hike prices .... a complete lose-lose situation for the punter and the licensee. (This is not to mention the absolute comical turnover of utter nobheads who reply to adverts - do you want to run your own pub - get it for "free" for 6 months and then have to do one cos they can't afford the "new" Pubco charges!!)

Add to that the property slump and Pubcos like Punch Taverns have debts of BILLIONS of quid. Yep billions ... from the Guardian March 2010 ... "Giles Thorley, a lawyer and banker before he went into the business, personally made tens of millions of pounds from Punch in the pre-recession boom, but the company is now hobbled by a debt mountain of more than £3.5bn."

p.s. just say it to yourself again ... BILLIONS!!

They are greedy bastards and would deserve everything they get - unfortunately if they do get everything they deserve that'll be us punters (and bands) goosed for somewhere to drink and play.

Freehold is the only way - but the Pubco's can't let go of their porperty cos it's worth fuck all to what they paid for it!!

I know this is all simplifying it a tad but that's what it is!

Hmmmmm I got quite angry there!

LOL

Willownoexpertbutknowswhatheknows

p.s.

No - I don't know the answer!

:0)

This is a problem the pubco's and the government dont want to deal with. It seems the government don't really want a licenses trade in this country anymore - or they wouldn't keep putting up beer duty, and there are no incentives or tax breaks etc for landlords like you may get in other business areas.

It's so stupid - it affects so many peoples livelihoods, and these places are an important social gathering spot for many of us.

But we'll never see it change - the country now owes so much money they'll tax enjoyment even further - more duty on beer and fags etc.

@Willow - I worked for Whitbread when they sold off 4500 pubs to Punch. It signalled the end for me of what was one of Britains best brewers. After 2000, Whitbread has by and large been a 'leisure' company. They don't even own a brewery anymore. Crying shame.

As much as I think the Americans are stupid, I think Obama's idea of starting construction projects etc to create jobs in order to stimulate the economy is a sound idea. We should be doing something of our own to create more jobs and reducing the mountainous benefits bill we are supporting at the minute. More jobs equals more people earning equals more leisure pennies spent which equals MORE LIVE BANDS!!!!!

that's my 3 quids worth chucked in now!!

Mick