NWB - Community Blog

Very noble of you sir/madam.I agree entirely.could you pass this message on to Mr Marshall,Mr Fender,and Mr Shure,im sure they'd comply.
Do some bands actually charge £300?....T

Sorry to disagree Complete Control but, I cannot see the point of you telling other bands what to charge in this blog. May I ask what you charge for a gig?

The laws of supply and demand work here.

If the pub feel that it is a good investment, and want to pay a band £300 then they should be able to do so. If the band pulls the audience in to spend their hard earned cash over the bar then the pub will make that decision on fee.I have seen landlords come on here and say that many factors affect pubs closing not just the fees bands charge.

Bands should be free to set a fee and then stand or fall by that fee. If they get gigs...Great. If they don't...Time to re-evaluate.

Best wishes

John

sitting firmly on the fence here but i do fall on the side of CC. we did a gig last week for a fee that i reckon most bands wouldnt even leave the front door for. we didnt pack the place out but a reasonably decent crowd turned out to see us and the landlady was dead chuffed, gave us extra money at the end of the night and gave us rebookings.

however this statement is pretty bob on i suppose

"Bands should be free to set a fee and then stand or fall by that fee. If they get gigs...Great. If they don't...Time to re-evaluate"

personally speaking its hard enough for everyone at the moment and if that means retreating a bit and just doing local gigs for a minimal fee then im happy with that. however i suppose its fair to say in this instance that its each to their own

To echo what John said above and I think I have posted before that Live music alone will not prevent the closure of pubs. The reason pubs shut is because there is no custom, this is mainly due to factors beyond the lanlords control. There is a recession...

Yeah a band can bring in punters but it's not really a sustainable level.

I'm not sure of many bands that charge £300 for a pub gig.

I have done unpaid gigs before because the pub could not affors it and ended up playing to the bar staff and a couple of locals. To me that does suggest the root of the problem is elsewhere.
I don't think location plays a big part either.
I have played pubs in the middle of nothing and it still manages to attract people and keep a healthy turnover..

Most I know do it for around £200, but even £200 seems steep to a pub making little or nothing on the bar. And in reflection £200 between four / five people more than likeley in 4 or 5 vehicles, travelling on average 20 - 30 miles each to get to a gig, between the hours of 8 and 1 in the morning does not seem that bad does it?
Especially when you consider the band will probably spend easily approx £20+ at the bar too.
Include the fact the bands spend the same time and layuot on fuel again each week to rehearse so as to be good enough to pull the punters in, sitck cost of equipment on top of that...

Where else would you get this much for £200 ?
I personally think some bands are well worth the money (in some cases taking around £30 home for all of their effort) and put on a damn good gig.

I've got a grandmother here Complete Control, she doesn't know how to suck eggs ........... any chance???

If more people went to drink in pubs they'd stay open, simple as.
One of the reasons they MAY go is to watch live entertainment.
Bands can quote whatever price they like. Pubs can pay any price they like.
There are myriad reasons why pubs are going to the wall - the pubs I see that are getting on with things round here have a regular clientele of drinkers. Go in at 5pm any day and there'll be 8 - 10 people having a sharpener after work. They'll leave about 8 when the nighttime regulars start appearing. THAT is what's NOT happening at the pubs that can't hack it.
I remember taking gear up to the Hindley Arms on a Weds mid-afternoon cos we were doing Paddy's night that night ....... it was almost as full then at 2 - 3pm as it was that night!!

Customers, that's what it's all about - not bands, not karaoke, not quiz nights, these are just a means to an end .... if you don't have a regular customer base for when these things aren't on (i.e. drinkers) then you are going tits up

# Posted by Willow (of somebig™Fish) - 21/09/2011, 10:17 (GMT)

.... if you don't have a regular customer base for when these things aren't on (i.e. drinkers) then you are going tits up



Sounds right to me..

what he said

"It's the ride on the Rainbow not the pot of Gold at the end" - for me.

Draw your own conclusions on where I stand.

Pros and semi-pros have to charge what they can because it's their living and / or outlay for gear, I appreciate that but for us weekend dabblers, I wholeheartedly agree with C.C and The Black Watch,

Rick.

# Posted by 45's Rick.. (aka Wick, The Gaz... - 21/09/2011, 10:21 (GMT)

"It's the ride on the Rainbow not the pot of Gold at the end" - for me.

Is Wick smacked off his tits at work again? Stop sniffing the fumes Wick lol

And the answer is, there is no right and wrong answer. There are too many variables to consider that makes anything anyone says on this topic worthwhile without writing a thesis. Just do what works for you....whether you're a venue, a band, a fan. The rest will look after itself.

ere ere Willow...............

I'm also getting pretty sick lately(from a few venues) - "bring a crowd" etc.....................

As Willow says - the pub should have their OWN core clientele - and the band turn up to entertain them + any other locals who like the look of the what the band do.........

Max

"It's the ride on the Rainbow not the pot of Gold at the end" - for me.

Well yeah true, but everyone is different Rick.

Not everyone is available or has money to spend to get to a gig. There has to be some incentive otherwise people will just - not through choice but because they need money - give up or go to where the money is.

Just to carry this on, cos it's really hit a nerve :

All thre venues quoted above
Madisons, Old House and Jesters -
a) no web presence other than the usual beerintheevening / pubonline crap
b) no presence on NWB

what the fuck do they expect??????

and yes I DID get out of the right side of the bed this morning!!

:0)

..... and ST, Asa you're right, there is no right answer - it's just that this excrutiatingly irrelevant blog/rant is not even close to asking the right question!!

fuck me, this isn't getting me blood pressure down!!

I think as long as you accept that you may not get the gig if you stick to your guns on a price then that's fine.

As you say Asa, do what works for you. If those things are compatible from both sides of the deal then all good, if not, both move on.

The 'bring a crowd' thing, due to lack of regular punters is, I imagine, the real problem. If a venue can't pay a band a decent amount (or at all) because they depend on the business of their followers during those few hours of the week to survive, then surely that's the big issue - how do you get 'regulars' back in?

@ Willow. "It's the ride on the wife, not getting out of the right side of the bed" for me,

sniff,

Wick.

Have any venues got anything to say on this?.They always seem to clam up on topics like this ive noticed.Do you just pay whatever a band demands.?Do you take their word for it that their shit hot and end up with 4 punters in your pub?.Or maybe you have a fixed price,or do you barter?..T

@Willow - It's another pointless blog. But in fairness he does label it a rant right at the very end. Calm down and have some cute penguins.

Wick, i'm surprised you still have the energy after all that drumming, badders, football ..... !!

D'ya get wafers wiv 'em??

:0)

to be fair I think the OP genuinely thinks its up to the likes of us to pull these places out of the shit. AIn't going to happen!

And spot on there about the lack of web presence too Willow - and even having a website (which some of the venues do) isn't necessarily good enough if it doesn't effectively advertise anything that sets you out from the rest of the field. You might as well just have the generic listing on yell or pubonline.

There are some brilliant FREE online tools to get more people interested in drinking in your pub - obviously NWB but many more. There are several pubs I've been to to watch bands or just to drink because of either on here or facebook or twitter because these venues have taken the time and effort to use these effectively. Interact with potential customers and actually show off what you have to offer that might make me want to go there rather than the Windmill, which I can walk to for a pint

The venues won't comment (save for a couple who contribute regularly) as they will inevitably be rounded on by those bands who's perception of value is greater than their talent. Oooh controversial.

A successful negotiation is one where BOTH parties are happy with the outcome. I recently negotiated with a venue and we were not able to reach an agreement. The difference is, I accepted we were not able to reach an agreement and went about my business. The venue were not so forgiving. And no, I won't be naming the venue.

Do what works for you. Always be respectful. This is business, but it's also people's livelihoods, hobbies, passion (and that goes for venues and bands).

venue responding.. we have our fixed price .. if bands dont want to play for it .. simples .. we dont book them

Perception of worth VS market will always be a bone of contention on here. At the end of the day it is absolutely down to the band/venue relationship and nothing else. It's also nobody else's business other than the band/venue.

Isnt it strange how these pointless blogs attract attention.Its shot straight into the top 10.Lol....T

Well said B H Mick !

Anyone need a Conservatory or Windows - See me. My prices are very fair and my service is second to none.

I also play in a band who adopts the same philosophy, that's why I get so many recommendations from satisfied customers and the band gets plenty of re-bookings,

Got to stop sniffing this sealant (S T)

Wick.

Hindley Arms is bang on! ......venues just need to do the costings.....

work out what your pub can do when full between the times the band is on...minus what you would normally take with no live music and divide by 3...easy.

so......

if you would normally take £1000 without a band
but £3500 with a band then you can pay £250

very rough workings out and GP / door staff and bar staff do upset the maths but you get my point

I don't think there's any correlation between the cost of covers bands and the downfall of the pub trade. If a landlord pays bands more than the business can afford they're obviously not very good at business - the simple answer would be to negotiate lower fees for future bookings or pull bands altogether. Plus the music thing is a tiny part of the issue, how come pubs who have no bands on at all are going down too?

The problem is people don't like going to pubs much anymore. Why's that? Obviously mainly the cost of drinking in a pub. The cost of booze in the pubs has gone up, whilst our disposible income is being eroded by the government's "austerity measures" and the cost of living forever rising. I've budgeted one night out every two months tops at the moment, that's all the "fun" money I have. If I'm going to have a night out, I'd rather have proper night out in Manchester as there's a huge variety of bars out there to cater for every mood open till daft o'clock.

I personally cannot see it getting better. With a long winter like we've got forecast our energy bills are going to be astronomical. We're also on the brink of another recession, you can guarantee that yet again Dave and George will target their austerity measures at the working classes rather than the rich. We'll have even less disposible income - less money to spend in pubs and on nights out. I can see within the next decade at most towns having one, maybe two pubs. I also think the problem will spread into city centres too. I've noticed the last few times I've been out over the past few months how comparitively quiet Manchester is than it used to be. The only good news about it is that there seems to have been a distinct reduction in drunken chavs - guess its hard to afford a night out on the town on benefits nowadays. But it's bad news for people running the pubs and clubs.

@ The Flying Horse Hotel, our 2012 gig diary is now open as from today. We had a ball at your gaff recently,

I've pm'd you,

Cheers,

Rick.

@ Hindley & Flying Horse.Thanks for the info,very informative.Will bear this in mind in future negotiations...T

Ha Ha,Rick ours has never been shut...T

I've dropped my fees and am now on the same money as I was ten years ago, unfortunatley most of life's essentials cost way more than they did then.
Why is it that some venues are still thriving or, at least, managing in the face of adversity when some others can't get punters through the door? Could it be that they've exhausted every promotional opportunity and raised their profile? Maybe they have, to no avail, but some haven't and are happy to blame bands for charging too much.
MN

www.parliament.uk/.../

This is the only thing that going to save pub's who are charged silly rent and £90 a barrel more than a managed house so yes we do have a budget and it might not be as much as other venue pays but we dont get money from the brewery to put bands on it comes out of our pocket so if the band dont like what we offer ask yourself is this pub tied to a brewery a free house or managed

I would like to bet all the pub shutting are brewery tied on long term leases

rant over anyone free this fr five star drive & cassin club /sat Rush tribute sunday night we have 8 live bands on from 8pm

@ MICK NASH - 21/09/2011, 11:33 (GMT)

"I've dropped my fees and am now on the same money as I was ten years ago, unfortunatley most of life's essentials cost way more than they did then. "



I started doing gigs at 16 (1980 onwwards) in pubs around manchester area, we were averageing £120 - £180 back then for a 5 pce band.. They were subsidised by the brewery for entertainments then though.

Clubs paid between £175 and £275 depending on size and agencies fee's.

# Posted by THE AVENUE PUB - 21/09/2011, 11:53 (GMT)
rant over anyone free this fr five star drive & cassin club /sat Rush tribute sunday night we have 8 live bands on from 8pm


Good example of marketing - take any and all opportunites :)

Covered in depth here:

nwb.co/blog/post/15860/oldmarkettavern/the-day-the-free-live-music-dies

We know what to do and what's happening:

Like ST posted, Do what works for you:

Keep calm and carry on..

@The Avenue

you're absolutely correct .... and well done to you for keeping it going - and to all that have said it, yes we have had this debate before, and, after the myriad subsidiary reasons for pubs closing, it all boils down to one thing :

the greedy bastard robbing Pubcos (Enterprise, Punch et al)

Sort that lot out (and they've been trying for a number of years now) and we might have a chance at keeping our traditional pubs open

I've just learned today that my local is ditching the Boddies after, well, as long as I can remember, so that'll be from 1975
To be replaced by the "new" saviour .... cask beer ...... which, if it's a good beer and kept properly, will be absolutely ace. I fear I'll be drinking vinegar within a few months!!

Happy sod today ain't I?? LOL

So....Did we get to the bottom of this then ;-)

Are we all agreed that pubs can set a fee which is comfortbale to them given the current economic situation and it is up to bands to decide if they wish to play for that fee or not?



Yes?


Good....No need for further blogs on this subject then ;-)

Best wishes to all pubs, clubs, and bands here

John.

It's been 6 weeks.

Either a pub can afford to put entertainment on or it cant ........ simple as.
Bands fees alone will not determine if a pub opens or closes.
If a pub is only having people in when there is a band on then its in trouble. regardless of what our fees are.
These days its food,football ,quizzes and the like that help with the running costs.It should be the whole entertainment package...
We should be asking... WHAT MAKES YOU OR I WANT TO GO INTO A PUB? in fact a particular pub!
for most of us its
nice surroundings,
no numpties getting in,
a good pint,
possibly good food,
a wholesomeness to make us stay there.
company ,
a jolly or friendly mien host ( who wants to drink in a pub if the staff and the owners have a face like a smacked arse.)
Then there are the Landlords other issues

Landlord are paying too much rent and too much for their beer (especially if the are tired into a company)
Sky has them by the balls- Although through a test case the pub landlord can now show foreign broadcasts of Premiership games , thats why we are having loads of 3 o'clock live footy in some of our pubs! This has got to help the pubs!
Its a myriad of all these things.
The simple rule should be if you cant afford a band or supplement their fees through other more successful evenings /days trading ( the marketing mix) them a venue shouldn't book bands .
Look at duos, solos or a karaoke perhaps if that will keep running costs down .
In a ideal world I,ll cut my fee when
The pubs owners cut their rent to the landlords and they are given a fairer deal
The Beer suppliers cut their costs
The tax man lowers his rate to pubs and make them a different case to supermarkets who sell some alcohol as loss leader
the price of Fuel comes down
The banks charge less on my overdraft.
if we cut our fees or go out for unrealistic fees then we are in the same boat as a failing pub.

@John - I'd stopped feeling guilty for killing all the pubs though - it was nice to have a reminder ;-)

www.parliament.uk/.../

http://www.makepubcompaniespay.com/index.html

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6844

www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/.../BISC-BBPA-claims-statutory-code-will-close-more-pubs

The British Beer and Pub Association has hit back at the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, claiming its recommendations for a statutory code of practice will lead to more pub closures.

BBPA: deeply disappointed
The BBPA came in for stinging criticism in the report, which said it had been “impotent” to impose any sanctions on code of practice breaches and its implementation of codes of practice had been “half-hearted”.

BBPA chief executive Brigid Simmonds said she was “deeply disappointed” with the report. “We believe we have demonstrated to the Select Committee that significant progress has been made by BBPA member companies which operate tied tenancies and leases, and we reject the Committee’s calls for a costly statutory code.

“This would pile more costs onto pubs and lead to more closures — something we hope Ministers will consider carefully when they come to look at these recommendations.

“Furthermore, we have continued to develop proposals to strengthen self regulation, building on what we have already done as an industry; the pub company codes of practice, the low cost arbitration service for tenants and lessees and the business advice already offered by the BII. We have also now published cost benchmarking data on our website, which ALMR and the BII have supported.”

She added: “Tied pubs continue to offer a low cost means of entry for self-employed pub entrepreneurs. The new codes, together with the pre-entry training now required by our members, ensures that would-be licensees have a clear understanding of what it takes to run a pub.

“BBPA members have invested some £265m into supporting the leased and tenanted sector over the last year at a time of unprecedented economic pressure.

“It is a combination of the smoking ban, economic recession and the 35% increase in beer taxation which the industry has endured since March 2008 which are the real reasons why pubs are closing.

“We call upon the Government to recognise these economic pressures and ease the burden on pubs. The pub sector needs less tax and less regulation, not more, if it is to continue to create jobs and sustain much needed economic growth in our communities.

“We look forward to discussing with Government how this is progressing before they respond to the Select Committee Report.”


We all know what gone on we need your help to fight make more people aware of what the pubco are doing we are not charging 25p more on a pint because we want to screw the punters who watch the bands the pub co are charging us 50p more when this fight started 2 years ago i was part of a group there was over 1300 of us on this group now there is only 138 left its worse than the the people know because if someone hands the key back and some one take over the week after its never classed as closed even the landlord and landlady might of lost there home life saving etc read the facts this might help x

who coming watching RUSH then

Bottom line is there are some people who are unnecessarily greedy in all areas. Some are in bands, some work for breweries and pub companies, but most of em are running the country.
Some bands do ask for silly money, especially considering the economic climate we're in. I know a lot of people who work in the entertainment business and as such have heard some unbelievable quotes. I also used to book entertainment for a couple of pubs as part of my job, and as we had a modest budget (£180 with a limited override for bigger nights like bank holiday sundays/xmas etc) it soon became apparent who we could afford and who we couldn't. That was no slight on the bands we couldn't afford, some very good bands fell into that category. On the flipside, and speaking as a band member, you do get the small percentage of manager/landlords who are expecting the earth for a pittence, (not to be confused with the ones who are trying their best on a limited budget) and they are doing the trade a massive disservice in these ropey times.

Frankie

@ Stu.

Me too............ Now, where did I put that jar of caviar and my bottle of Moet ;-)

@ The Avenue

Damn and blast..... Playing at The Railway that night but have a great night. What Rush tribute is it?

Best wishes

John

"Tied pubs continue to offer a low cost means of entry for self-employed pub entrepreneurs"

Utter shite.

Just to back up what The Avenue posted above, it literally cost me £70,000 to run a tied pub for 3 years. We gave it up as soon as there was no money left, and now the robbing pubco are trying to bankrupt my family saying that we still owe them almost £20k. What can you do when it they charge you almost £2.00 a pint to buy Fosters on top of the £6,000 a MONTH rent and council tax?

Saving the odd hundred here and there scrimping on band fees isnt going to help is it?

It didnt really apply to us though as our pub wasnt really set up for bands, so we only put a band on maybe once a month. Usually it was my band (or the other band who used our function room to practise) so it didnt cost anything. But when we did have to pay the band we agreed the fee beforehand and stuck to it whatever the turnout.

The government are firmly sticking to their policy of destroying the pub business - mainly through ridiculous taxation and allowing supermarkets to sell alcohol for less than the price of water.

"The government are firmly sticking to their policy of destroying the pub business - mainly through ridiculous taxation and allowing supermarkets to sell alcohol for less than the price of water."


Yes that's something that get's my back up too...

Normal pub gig £200 [We can go lower than that if PA and Lights are provided, or if we're doing a mate a favour]
Pub gig a long way away - £250

I think that's good value for a 4-piece band [2x guitar, bass, drums] who all sing lead and backing. Much lower than that and we wouldn't even break even.
Jon

@ drum bloke who should the politicians side with? The "hidden" multinationals who own the pubcos, contribute to the party coffers, avoid taxation and offer consultancies and board seats to "retired" (read voted out, washed up) politicians or the "hidden" multinationals who own the supermarkets, avoid taxation, contribute ... ad nauseum.

:-)

Let's put this one out there then: Should a band be paid differently according to how many members there are? I remember one venue suggesting we be paid less (than other bands) purely because we are a 3-piece. Personally I don't think thats fair.

I don't think the members have anything to do with it. Perhaps for struggling pubs a punter tarrif could be brought in? A smaller flat fee then £1 for every punter dragged in off the street to watch the band?

How about pay based on performance against bar takings? NB: BIG SMILIE :-)

Its been said earlier, you're worth what you're worth to whoever is interested in hiring you for the night. Take it or leave it but at the end of the day competition is increasing as the number of pubs (for those who play in them) decreases and, sadly, capitalism encourages a drive to the lowest cost of production thus maximising profit so it ain't going to get any better.

I have said it before, but do you know what I will say it again.......

For most of us here we do this as a hobby, we all spend more than we really 'should' on kit, because we are all magpies at the end of the day.

We get together with like minded hobbyists and go out and make some noise and have a good time at the weekends.

How many hobbies are there that allow you to break even or maybe even make some money back? Hardly any if were honest.

So really what is the issue about money? No one forces us to invest in expensive gear (I say invest because money can always be recouped from instrument / kit sales) we do it because we want to.

The same is true that no one forces us to want to gig further afield and drive the distance to get there, but we do it all the same.

To put it in a nutshell - If you don't rely on this as your primary income, quit whinging.

# Posted by "THE SUGAR BULLETS" ... - 21/09/2011, 15:38 (GMT)

Let's put this one out there then: Should a band be paid differently according to how many members there are? I remember one venue suggesting we be paid less (than other bands) purely because we are a 3-piece. Personally I don't think thats fair.


Dean, I reckon that's a fair approach.

Reverse it. Would you like to be in a 7 piece band getting paid the same as a 3 piece ? Or in a 3 piece and a solo artis getting the same

How about the bands payment is calculated and you could split the money based up on this formula

Payment = instrument 'footprint' (metre squared) / total 2nd hand monetary value x ( instrument weight / time taken to setup) x % of validity to song performance.

That way if you played a Kazoo you would get 'fick all' unless the set included
Roller Coaster - The Red Hot Chili Peppers
Cross town traffic - Hendrix
and Fluffy pup by the lovely Macc Lads


***disclaimer in no way is this formulae favourable to the drummisters***
;)

# Posted by Dom Blair - The Accidental Gui... - 21/09/2011, 16:18 (GMT)

1. So really what is the issue about money?
2. No one forces us to invest in expensive gear (I say invest because money can always be recouped from instrument / kit sales) we do it because we want to.

1. The issue about money is that some people make a living from gigs Or would not prefer to pay to play.
2. Yeah cause you do it because you want too!! Who would do gigs when they don't want too???
If you buy cheap gear it more often than not does not last as long, or fails, or worse sounds poor, and certainly does not keep a good 2nd hand value and extremeley rarely is worth anything after years of use.
I imagine plenty of bands here keep repairing amps speakers, replace lights microphones, smoke machines, drum skins, drum sticks, cymbals, Then there's Rehearsals to pay for, and the CAR..


The same is true that no one forces us to want to gig further afield and drive the distance to get there, but we do it all the same.

1. Yeah I have done gigs further a field but not by choice. How many bands are there in Rawtenstall or Kendal. I think many bands are asked to travel.

To put it in a nutshell - If you don't rely on this as your primary income, quit whinging.

It isn't actually band members whingeing. The issue discussed is centred around bands charging 'too much' when pubs are struggling.

Some venues we play do a head count of band members and say 'I'll pay you £***** per band member...'
So a trio would get less than a 4 piece band in total but each individual would pocket exactly the same...

If a venue pays £150 max then it's up to the band to decide if it's worth their efforts or not...
If a band charges £300 minimum then there are a lot of good venues that either cannot or will not pay that much due to budget or principle...

I have a good mate in a band that charges a minimum of £350 per gig...for a 4 piece.
They don't get too many gigs and don't play too many different venues...but this works for them

LGIT put 'The Gig' before the purse...YES we do ask for a minimum of £200, but some gigs are worth doing for a bit less because we enjoy them...

Some of our venues use the 'bucket' system where you get a set minimum fee then it's up to the band to 'earn' more from 'hopefully' entertained punters who will throw cash into the bucket...this has worked very well for us BUT...is it a form of busking ????

We all have different self-worth, needs and agendas so it's totally an individuals choice...
A good quote here is ''he who pays the piper calls the tune''
Horses for courses eh...
Gary

slightly different angle aimed at venues - what would you consider to be value for money from a band aside from obvious playing ability)?

New Antiques would typically set up anytime between 7.30 and 9pm (depending on requested start time), if local would set up earlier in day nad get sound-check out of the way). Then assume on by 9.15pm for first set of about 10 to 12 songs. 15 mins interlude then second set of similar duration, giving impression of closing number on last song. Then 3 or 4 mins off stage for refreshment guaging crowd for enchore request one of own 'groupies' encouraging crowd request. Back on for 2 or 3 songs to keep punters interested into last orders territory for standard pub arrangement. Obviously could start a bit later for a pub that runs later hours.

Also Interested to hear what other bands 'typical' is?

Steve.

Just in the last 6 mths in our town we had 2 night clubs shut both free of tie , a small free of tie bar that only holds 30, 3 pubs shut and been bought buy smaller brewery open up as managers houses 1 even saying he dont know what he will do when he has to take the lease on in a few mths his take wont cover rent sky rates never mind buying beer then we got the boundary turn in to flats the eagel and halk shut the globe shut ,the moon raker the bank now got as the owner could not make it pay free of tie 2 pubs with holding companys in them and god knows how many for sale The problem we got is to many pubs in the town and we also got a yates ,wspoon, mitchel & butler a havester and having a new food pub built as we speak

we got within 2 min walk from me a w/spoon a yates and 5 free of tie and a night club when the free of tie cant make it work what hope as anyone else got bring back smoking reduce vat and sort the PRS out who killing us wanting the years payment in advance where always for the last 4 years it was paid 1/4 installments no warning just payment within 14 days so please please if i am paying this make sure you claim your share

who does claim there share of PRS

My band has been doing gigs for more or less the same price for the last 10 years or more. During that time the price of beer has shot up, as has the price of fuel and just about everything we need to buy to stay alive.
It's also worth noting that it's not just live entertainment pubs that are going out of business, but your ordinary locals and town centre pubs as well.
A lot of it is down to unscrupulous breweries and management companies who screw their tennants as soon as they make a meagre profit, but a lot of it is down to pure and simple bad management of the pubs themselves. How often do you turn up for a gig and find out that the pub has made no effort whatsoever to let their punters know that there is a band on. Other factors include just trying to make the place look nice with clean floors, toilets that don't stink etc. Oh, and how many pubs do you know that sell crap beer.
In short, if you make the place appealing to punters you stand more of a chance of keeping going.

This is a pretty dumb argument in my opinion:-

Beers gone up - Foods gone up - Taxis have gone up, Cost of Living has gone up.......... so youre saying put Band Prices DOWN???!!!

Youve got to be kidding?


No offence, but your valuing your skill, effort, time, investment and equipment as well as power of pulling punters in at LESS than the price of someine working behind the bar.

If every band stood by what they were worth (and not being excessive) theyd get what theyre worth, its the fact that most bands lower their prices that keep prices low for everyone playing pubs.

Weve played venues years ago when we did pubs, that would rather pay £150 to a less than average unknown band just starting out with no following who would be playing to an empty pub, than £200 to us who would fill their venue, build up the venues reputation and bring the cash in, so how does that work? sorry, but too many landlords have blinkers on - ive dealt with enough to know that. The quibbling over a few hundred quid for a band is a drop in the ocean to the main cause of the problems.

If people think pubs are shutting because of people not coming through the door - and they think theyre an entertainment venue and youre paying £100 a band - is it any wonder no ones coming in?!

Sad fact, most pubs go off budget FIRST. They dont go off how good the band is, what following they have and what impact they could have on the future of the pub. Usually its 'what do you charge?' & 'what do you play' - then 99% of the time no response. Never i have been asked, where have you played before, whats your rig, whats your stage set up, whats your lighting set up - ALL things that help bring punters in or establish venues as top class entertainment venues. Also NEVER i have had an enthusiastic landlord or bar manager on the end of the phone who is genuinely interested in seeing how the band could work to his/her advantage. 9 out of 10 on here would tell you trying to gig a gig is like banging your head on the wall, but less enjoyable.

This is nothing against those doing it as a hobby, or who do it for the purely the joy of playing - but please DONT encourage people to put their prices DOWN!!

Surely this is a forum about how to improve your band in every way - not devalue what you do!

www.labam.co.uk

In fact, whilst im ranting :)

Im fed up of pubs moaning beers gone up, this has gone that has gone up - well petrol has gone up for bands getting to your venues (usually in 3 or 4 vehicles), beer is more expensive when we're in YOUR pub for us too! Our post gig pizza is more expensive, guitars are more expensive, car insurance is more expensive..........the list is endless - its not just pubs who are paying more!!

So put prices DOWN!!! aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!


:)

it sounds like we are the only pub that have put prices down eg carling and fosters £2 a pint..john smiths £1.80 a pint... tetley £1.90 a pint.. double vodka & rush £2 just to name a few.. so we aint moaning that things are going up in the pub... come on you bands drop the price for us..lol. come try us out this weekend we have got PHOENIX on saturday and a new solo artist called JUST JAY on sunday
dee xx

ha ha, nice on dee,

I was just going to add that as petrol has gone up for us bands would it be possible for pubs to lower the price of their beer!! :)

sounds like your one step ahead!

cheap beer - good bands and well advertised - you get a genuine well done from me, keep it up.

It's down to the breweries to support their pubs more. If they stopped puting rents up by stupid unrealistic amounts then pubs might stand a chance. A friend of mine had a great pub in chorley that put live bands on, it was always a great night, but because the landlord was making a fair living they stitched him up by hiking he rent up by such an unrealistic amount he fucked off somewhere else. Surely there must be a compromise between breweries and landlord/landladies where they can both make a decent profit and stop venues closing down at the rate they are at the moment, cause if this carries on bands will have no where to play.

Overpriced bands are not the reason for pubs shutting down. The government are to blame for a series of bungling mistakes which are having a catastrophic effect on our heritage. It doesn't help when the government employ experts to advise them but then proceed to sack them if they don't like the advice given!

There will come a time when drinking will go underground if we are not very careful......as I was writing this I thought....hang on! this deserves its own blog....

There will be 2 types of drinking establishments - tbc.....

Over the years I have played in a weird variety of venues, from those with big flashy light systems and a juke box thats on a better rate of pay than a London parking meter, to those that are nothing more than an air raid shelter with optics. They all have one thing in common, who goes in. The last gig I went to,( two week ago) the band sent someone round with a hat and the audience donated a suggested figure of £5 each ( this did work). I mention this just to point out alternative payment methods. I've been involved with pubs who have started looking at putting bands on and ended up with a successful venue. Everyone chipped in and gave their time for free, and eventually folding cash was on the menu. Then again I've seen things go tits up as well. This has usually started with PRS (Petty Robbing Shits) and some number crunching brewery geek deciding that now someone has got a decent business going they will slam up the rent etc. and in one case I know, where the pub had increased its market value, it was sold from under the tenants, Super!
A pub makes its money from who its customers are, and they are the ones who really dictate what type of entertainment is worth paying for. Try playing a pub when a big match is on. If you want to know what to charge, just look at the customers or if you like living on the edge and want to see what your worth, sit in front of a cash machine and busk. Once played a gig at the local swimming baths, but its just not the same without a shark in the water.

what makes me go back to a pub i like, i of course realise how tough financially things are , but the following make up my kinda pub wish list

reasonable and fair prices(despite the machivellian pressure of government tax and brewery fascism)

nice inside(cosy pubs are best) with some effort made on decoration and cleanliness(some pub toilets are like an open sewer however i know many of my gender treat it like such

good selection of drinks, real ales especially, i know they take a lot of looking after, you dont have to be the good beer guide all in one place, even one cask will do, as well as popular draft and bottled continental beers, offers on spirits(doubles)

good food, again doesnt have to be gastro, its so easy to do simple hearty and even healthy stuff, which can stave off multiple crisp and scampi fry packet buying and come away from the pie and chips same old same old ..yawn.........

jukebox, and dont try and be too trendy with obscure retro albums that if lucky contain one hit but are deemed "cool" albums

friendly ,management, taking zero tolerance from knobheads,and a sexy barmaid always is good, sexist?, possibly, but thats part of what pubs were built on!

i know theme pubs were a bit dated and 80s , but your pub should have some general style of decoration and kind of theme to it, whether its the generic horse brasses and victorian pictures, or pictures of film and sports stars etc, just something that gives it an identity at least, nothing worse than a bland dirty pub with stained carpets , carling and nothing to endear it

and of course entertainment, live bands is the cream of the crop, but even a jukebox can cheer the place up, pool, darts,quiz nights, even simple off the wall stuff like having a retro games night(like they do in the "trendy" Northern Quarter bars) just basic ideas than can separate you from the pack

@The Avenue ......

"who does claim there share of PRS"

WHAT???

As far as I understand The Performing Right Society (PRS) collects and distributes royalties due for public performances of songs in clubs, pubs, concert venues, cruise ships, and anywhere else that uses live music to attract customers. These businesses pay the PRS for a license to play live music. The PRS then passes the money on to the publishers of the songs. The publishers in turn pass a share on to the writers.

I may be wrong but you don't get PRS payments for performing your own material - so the original bands you have on will not be entitled to anything. Other than that us money grabbing cover bands are only further lining the pockets of the original writers and publishers.

Assuming of course you pass on everybody's set list to the PRS. (Something I've only ever been asked for once)

@ Willow

Actually we can - see www.prsformusic.com/.../gigsandclubs.aspx

@Egbert .... cheers, I stand corrected!!

@Rob - sexy barmaid? Mmmmm, this is often a license to get away with murder! I've seen so many sexy barmaids who can't count, can't pull a pint, don't know what a 'gill' is, can't change a barrel, don't recognise who was next to be served, can't wipe a table ect ect ect....

Give me a grumpy old greaser any day!! LOL

ps sincere apologies to all the sexy barmaids on NWB - you are all fantastic!

Try asking for a schooner of sherry these days!!

(in fact, from about 10 years ago actually)

Pesky Kids

Whilst we are on the subject - try asking for a taxi! The young 'uns don't understand that a public house should have a public phone....my house does and people are welcome to use it. I don't care if everyone has mobile phones nowadays, everyone has access to supermarkets but they would have something to say if I pulled out a pack of beers from my rucksack. I want the pub to ring me a taxi or put the bloody payphone back!!!!!! Grrrrr.....

Anyway, I'm off to find a pub with some atmosphere on a Thursday night. I may be some time.

For what it's worth, it's no better in cyprus, plus the fact that you only get gigs when its the tourist season.
Sadly here as well it seems to be going down the road of 1 guy or a duo with backers, because they can be paid less, these guys get between €80 to about €150 per night and usually have to play for 3 hours.

This means the music scene here is pretty stale, I'm not saying that all bands are crap here but we also have the different wig different band brigade.

when i come back to the uk I gorge myself on bands that have been together for years and are as tight as a nats chuff!

if a band is charging 300 notes, they would not be booked to play an empty pub, loads of pubs closing down and its a sham . but a good run pub with the right ideas always works, there is a pub near me which as a loyalty card and belive you me is packed most nights, he can actually pay for decent acts, as his idea of a loyalty card works,

if a band is charging 300 notes, they would not be booked to play an empty pub, loads of pubs closing down and its a sham . but a good run pub with the right ideas always works, there is a pub near me which as a loyalty card and belive you me is packed most nights, he can actually pay for decent acts, as his idea of a loyalty card works,

if a band is charging 300 notes, they would not be booked to play an empty pub, loads of pubs closing down and its a sham . but a good run pub with the right ideas always works, there is a pub near me which as a loyalty card and belive you me is packed most nights, he can actually pay for decent acts, as his idea of a loyalty card works,

"if a band is charging 300 notes"
------------------------

1. Do they get any gigs?
2. If so...then they're doing better than us.
3. Explain this loyalty card thing, I'm a bit lost.

Deano

inner city sumo?

monkey tennis?