NWB - Community Blog

You Little mixer Mick.no pun intended.
Seriously though, Whats the point of a sound engineer in a pub?,just a waste of space to me,a punter could be sat there clapping.If their practicing for Wembley arena, fair enough,but come on ,in a room 30ft by 30ft.Cant they just use their ears?....T

I would have killed to have an engineer in my last band. For some mysterious reason the bass used to suddenly go really loud when the gig started!!! ;0)

Acoustics do change when pubs fill up - how often do you see people suggesting/pointing at musicians giving the up or down gesture. Usually they point at me with their middle finger saying I need to turn up, what's that all about?

;0)

Back in the 60s when local bands were brilliant,they had cheap crappy mikes,and theyd never heard of engineers,and the only monitors they had were the bloody big Selmers behind em.
Dont you think its all got a bit pretentious these days?...........T

@ Jez,Thats the fault of your Bass player,didnt he notice it too.ive watched sound men in pubs and thought Hell fire,is he listening to the same band as me?.....T

Hey Tel,

Back in your day it was norm for everyone including the bass player and singer all to plug in to a Voc AC30 and cause a storm, well, until the amp blew up................

Then Vox brought out PA speakers that you could tilt as they were fixed to a nice chrome stand, I think they were about 75w but you could upgrade them by adding an additional speaker to make'em 100w, no tweeters though.

How things have changed................

Lee :)

Ha Ha,lee i remember those old coffinlike vox things with the chrome ironing boards attached to em...lol.

Yes your right Mick, the lead guitarists of the 60s were just as much up themselves as they are now lol,and would have given anything for some of the effects they have now.But in them days,they had to rely more on ability ....T

Ha Ha .Are we talkin about 99 Red Balloon days or before that.....T

and then they invented WEM Vendetta cabs! :)

lol, ha ha.....great post !


a sound engineer isn't needed for most rock cover bands playing the average pub, as the sound can be handeled by the band themselves,......only the larger venues require somebody to do the sound and often have an in-house P.A. system too.....This can be good news, as the engineer is familiar with the system and the acoustics of the building, ...there are times though, where the engineer THINKS he/she knows how to use the system but hasn't got a clue.

Mid to late 60's came the old SAI PA speakers, big bastards, my old man used a pair of these about 20+yrs ago for a while.

H&H were another good manufacturer of PA and general musical equipment.

Lee :)

@ Tel,

Been saying this all along, people like to play at the big time, I know it's a laugh but, c'mon......Get real!!! :-)

If you Terry, next time you're playing at the Original Ship in Leyland I will bring the full system down and mic you all up through it, doesn't that sound really good..................Not!!!

Lee :)

Old against new .this could be a blog on its own.Im not starting it,ive had my january bollockings ..lol...T

99 Red Balloons is a direct consequence of The Beatles, just like every other piece of music ever written since (and even sometimes before) The Beatles existed.

If the sounds of the 60's were so bad then why do companies spend fortunes trying to replicate those sounds? And more importantly, why do musicians spends thousands of pounds buying equipment that is made to sound like the gear that we let go in the 70's?

I refer you to Chas & Dave's sound engineer-

He uses SM57's on EVERYTHING!! Vocals, drums (yes bass drum too) the whole lot! The end result is.....
That Chas & Dave sounded like a 50's boogie woogie group - which is what they were!

Not rocket science. I agree with Tel, old valve sounding gear is attractive to me and digital gear is a turn off.

To answer the question, I've had many discussions with engineers about recreating the 'right sound' - notably with the crew member who worked with Chas & Dave's engineer who scoffed at his "ancient techniques'

@ wagontown - very disappointing - you could just as easily say what's the point of the bass player or drummer - i mean you can make a sound without them can't you? the answer is to provide a decent quality mix - there is a 10 piece band i know couldn't possibly go out and gig without an engineer and there is a 5 piece band with complex requirements and a top notch sound who are my regular working partners - they could manage without an engineer but i believe having me out front gets them a far better sound which gives the punters a far better night. seriously - a very offensive comment and very disappointing for a musician not to understand what an engineer brings to a gig.

Moving on more productively @ mick
1. getting best sound out of rig - i'm not sure what you are asking but if you are asking how i get the best out of a set up, in part it's experience and knowing what works and where, in part it is testing out the rig in the rehearsal unit and knowing how it CAN perform - i know a certain pair of cabs i have need a certain frequency notching out on the FOH graphic to make them sound their best. I always test in the unit using certain high quality CD racks - Hall & Oats, She's gone is a favourite because of the frequency range. When i set up at a gig i always run up a test tune and have a wander to see how it sounds around the venue, particularly if i haven't worked in the venue before. this gives me a reference point to see if the room behaves peculiarly (they all have quirks). i keep tis in the back of my mind as i work thro sound check and when i come to mix the show,
2. hopefully, the band and I want similar things, here it really helps to have a partnership with a band, it's always more difficult dropping in to a one off gig where you don't know each other. sometimes i get some very specific briefing notes from the band but often they trust me to portray them faithfully. i like to know their set, work from cue sheets. the pop/rock show band i do a lot of work for has a high quality female vocal and a great set of musicians, if i mix a certain way i can make them a little cabaret ish, if i go the other way i can make them sound a little more full on rocky. i reign it in for certain gigs but in the main mix them for a rockier sound - i started doing it that way cos i heard it in them and when i did they like it - but to be honest what they really want to talk about inst the sound out front it's the monitor mixes. some bands care less an only the singer is interested in a monitor mix. talking of the same band, monitors is an issue we have been working on for nearly 9 months now - we now have 4 monitors (including one in ears) and 3 seperate monitor mixes, if i can't get them right for whatever reason i HEAR about it in vocal terms. the 10 piece i was talking about earlier run 5 monitor mixes and are VERY particular about their monitor mix. the best compliment i had was when the keyboard player from the 5 piece walked over to me after a gig at the wheatsheaf in preston and said 'it sounded like playing in the studio' he was pleased - I was over the moon - been dining out on that compliment since.
3. I listen to the band when they say that isn't what they want - and i give them what they want, tho i will explain my limitations - actually this tends to be 'i'm struggling to get your rhythm guitar up in the mix because...' rather than a clash of sound styles. but if i were asked to mix the style they want i would just if i were asked to change the way i played the bass i would have when i was a gigging musician - then if i disagreed over a period of gigs maybe i would consider my position - but as an engineer you are part of the band but you are not, they are also your client - you should be a conduit thro which they travel so you can show them to the audience at their very best. volume can also be an issue tho, sometimes as a good engineer you need to keep the volume down to be able to keep the quality under control and you are in a better position to judge if the audience ears are tiring. most gigs i will cut back a little to give peoples ears an opportunity to open up before taking it up a gear again - but it depends on the type of band and punter.
4. backline volume - yeah you have to get a reasonably manageable level on stage - the guys need to feel balanced but the need to keep the volume manageable - good pro's do this anyway. the back line should be their individual monitor - if i see a marshall stack being rolled into a bar i know that the engineer, band and punters are in for a rough deal. because you can change the FOH to suit the venue the band soon get used to setting up with similar settings at each gig and technical rehearsals with all the band and all the PA in a hall away from prying eyes are good for sorting out these sorts of issues. i have also been known to get them to change positions on stage and work with a layout because i know it sounds better for them and works out front for me mixing. As for sound - i may ask for a lil less reverb on a guitar or talk to a guitarist about the volume of certain patches - i get to know each guitarist tho, one guy i mix has all his patches set but his lead work can be a little high, so i sit on the fader and lower him if it's a problem. another his patch volume doesn't increase for a lead break so i watch my cue notes and punch up his solo in the mix.
5. using a method...you mean to set the backline volume? not exactly, if i am working with a band regularly we hit on a pattern - you need to be low enough to hear your vocal monitors without them feeding back (given proper mics, mic and monitor positioning) and you need to hear the drummer at smaller gigs without putting too much of him thro the monitors - i usually know if the stage volume is too high in sound check if we are having to put too much drums in monitors - but venues and needs do vary.

You need a lot of trust between an engineer and a band and that builds up over time. the 5 piece i work with had a few engineers before me but they didn't quite fit.you do need some sort of rapore and understanding.
i am reminded of the following that i posted recently and I aim it at Wagon town too:

an engineer- most important thing is his 'ears' .. an engineer can take an average band and make them sound much better, take a great band and make them sound amazing, he knows when the audience ears need resting, he knows when building up a song will work during a mix and when it won't, how to make a girl's voice cut through, how to stop the drummer sounding like he is putting up shelves (well most of the time). he knows how to get 4 monitor mixes without getting feedback, he watches and concentrates every second of the night looking for the visual and audio cues to sit a certain voice back in the mix, balance a 3 part harmony or to bring a guitar part forward. like any other member of the band, when hiring an engineer the thing you need to be looking for is his talent.

Unfortunately the 80's produced (or should I say over-produced) some of the worst sounding records ever in the name of progress. Often good songs but with horrible sickly sugar coated production.

Spot on Gary.I saw a Hank Marvin effects pedal the other day,WTF that all about if the 60s are dead.?....T

Sorry Howard,sound thingy,ive only just seen this ,just let me have a read....T

I can haz summery plz?

I sold an old SAI bass rig to a guy in LA about yrs ago as he collected old british valve amps due to the fact that he rented them out to local recording studios so bands could recreate that british sound.

Don't see many collecting Line 6 or other souless digital amps to get that (thin lifeless sound), in the 70's and 80's you couldn't give valve amps away, when live bands started to appear in the 90's vlave amps have come full circle again and they're still going strong 20yrs later.

Most manufacturers are adding valve pre-amps to their gear to try and emulate a valve amp.

Lee :)

@Howard - could you elaborate a little?

@mick ps buy me a pint and you can pick my brains if you are trying to get your head around a practical issue

I do a lot of sound engineering when I'm not gigging myself. But 80% of the engineers out there are awfull, a sound engineers band is supposed to give a true representation of the band, if the band are shit we can't polish it, if they are good that should come across. Just making everything clear and smooth.

..yr welcome mick - and if you wonder why sound engineers often think less than perfect thoughts about musicians, i give you exhibit A... the above posts from others.

@ Howard.You obviously know your stuff,But just regard me as your average gig goer who just wants to see a good band.Im no different than anyone else,therefore i dont give a monkeys wether theres a soundman there or not.If a drummer sounds like hes putting shelves up,he's a crap drummer and theres nothing even YOU can do about it....T

It does indeed look a good read. I've just ordered a kindle off amazon so I can take it to read on my hols! lol

;0)

@Howard,

I agree with everything you say, pity half of the bands that want a wembley arena sized PA don't...........

Pro's more often than not turn up with a small 30 or 40w amp just so they can hear themselves on stage, amatuers (not all) roll up with an amp the size of garden shed plus a couple of spares that they insist on having on-stage with them, then want to play at no.11 and expect to be mic'd up as well.................Laughable

Lee :)

On my lunch break so will be quick.

When I have recorded bands at gigs I use Y-Leads so I can take a copy of the signal and record. Using this method means that whatever I do, does not affect the live FOH sound. A lot depends on the space you are playing in of course. I mean, if you are in a tight space and you place a couple of condensers as overheads for the kit and this is right close to the speakers, you are liable to get feedback. When recording though, i used overheads straight to the audio interface and this did not come back through the P.A.

The important thing is getting the sound the band want and are used to and working with them on that. When a venue starts to fill up though, the bodies absorb the sound and reflections and so this changes perhaps what was set in the sound check. Therefore the engineer will constantly be making his/her own judgement whilst the band are busy playing.

Stuart

There's two different things here...yeh for a big concert type venue, a sound engineer is essential, but for 95% of the venues on here they are redundant...ok for carrying gear in/out and getting drinks lined up when last orders sound :D

Being a simple Glaswegian, I like to keep things simple and constant. The less variables the better IMO.
Before our first gig, we did 2 or 3 practices in full gig mode to get the right band balance right.
Once you have that "constant", whereas each band member sticks to their preferred sound/level, then you move onto the desk and get that to how you like it. If the back line is changed week after week or in some cases song after song, doesn't matter how good a SE or Desk is, it's gonna be all over the place.

Classic example is when we played at the Fern and Fallow in Cannock just before Christmas.
In House PA with a digital desk and a sound engineer who was using all his own gear and didn't get paid for it and was simply doing it for the love of it. Lovely guy.

Anyway, we soundchecked and it sounded brilliant. Job done. Moved our gear off and on comes the support band.
Nice guys, funny as hell, but when the bass player suddenly pulls out 3 basses, all completely different, plus the guitarist's are using lots of different guitars, you could see where it was going.

Soundcheck, sounds pretty good.
So they start the gig, starting with the same song they soundchecked. First 2 songs sound good. Then the guitar/bass swaps happen...HUUUUUUUMMMMMM....BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM...SQUEEEEEEEAL. They then proceed to swap guitars here there and everywhere...sound guy is battling like hell to fix the problems but when he sorts it for one song, they swapped guitars and same thing happened again. At the end of it, the band were pissed off and although they didn't say it, you knew who they were pinning the blame on.

We went on, didn't have a single problem and the sound guy recorded the entire gig and put every individual track on a couple of dvd's for us to mix down at our leisure and it was only when I was mixing some tracks that I realised how well the back line level works. Yeah there was a few little things that we noticed that we have since tweaked on the back line, but I guess as long as your sound is consistent, all you have to do is make sure every instrument is clear and doesn't blow out any other when it comes through the PA.
That's all I do. Might sound complicated but trust me, it certainly isn't lol

This is old saying is very true, "You can't polish a turd"....................

As Howard quite rightly points out, even by having the best soundman in the world at the other end of the room, a shit band will still sound shit.

@Tel, you're also right, a shit drummer will sound shit regardless of whether he is mic'd up or not. Also, when you came to the NYE gig, apart from the bass drum and a my bass amp, nothing else was mic'd up, don't remember anyone complaining about not hearing anything or it was too loud???

Lee :)

sigh...you know sometimes i shouldn't get baited. ..half the thread reckons i serve no purpose at all - I mean do I turn up to where you play and say 'y'know your a waste of a good drinking seat sod off home..'
I guess the thread serves two purposes
1. Mick got his questions answered
2. it reminded me why i should just keep my expertise and thoughts for the people who see the benefit and knock on the door with work - i don't think i ever felt so unwelcome by the musical community while I was on stage. a valuable lesson learned here.

ok, playing the old devils here, how many of you sound engineers turn up to every rehearsal ?
as we learn new stuff, buy new instuments then surely the sound guy needs to have
the pa set up so he can check the levels/micing against the bands known setings?

i hear it all the time ,sound engineers whinging that somethings changed since last outing and now sqeeeeel hisssss etc etc

let alone having hearing tests, if you have not got great hearing how can you quantify our sound correctly?

hmmm

The NYE gig,It Was great, a Classic example,i just love it when a band just plays from start to finish without flapping and touching knobs or altering.Ive only got one KNOB,and nobody touches that ,well, the one that controls my volume anyway..No Knob jokes please.....T

@ Howard
Wouldnt feel unwelcome....just that half the venues on here dont even have room for somebody sat at back with a desk

Howard ,Dont take it to heart mate ,most of us on are just playing the devils advocate.Its a good way to get folks true feelings.If i posted a 3000 word blog on playing the double bass,id get f*****d up hill and down dale on here ,and rightly so.It all boils down to the old horses for courses thing in the end.....T

@vankwish - setting levels is straightforward for a new guitar or amp - the procedure is the same for most kit PFL, gain level set for unity. i usually mute each channel while i PFL and set gain anyway, then bring the fader up. there shouldn't really be any squeeling or hissing unless someone somewhere is doing something wrong! with the bands I work with regularly i drop by for rehearsals regularly, usually last rehearsal before a gig when the set has changes, so i can write up new cue sheets. some bands don't like a spare part at a rehearsal and to be honest if an engineer can do his job, one rehearsal with new gear or set list should be more than enough.
for the band i work with they work very fast, they can usually get 2 or 3 new numbers done per one or two rehearsals, so for NYE they emailed me cue sheet amendments and we sat and went thro them after sound check and that was fine.

@night train, i'm working some of the same circuit as you and i'm not the only engineer with a desk out on that circuit so i'm not sure where the idea of insufficient space comes from - most good venues are used to some bands turning up with engineers. there is a gig on your own list that can be hit or miss, which is to say often quite. aforementioned 10 piece turned up there with professional engineer, those passing thro stayed so that a bar that would normally have 20 or 40 punters in unless the band brought more, ended the night with maybe 150 in - band impressed the management and they promptly doubled their fee because they saw the band as worth it in no small part due to the expert mixing of that engineer (not me)
now dont get me wrong, sometimes an engineer has to be creative in a bar as to where to put himself but most will fit a 16 or 24 channel desk in. most bands come in at aroud 13 or 14 channels and i haven't worked with one in a bar yet that needed 24 channels - that's less than the size of a 2 x 12 laid flat, that's a table for 2 - i think most venues can find a table for two in a reasonable spot. there is in fairness only one venue manager who is always a pain about me setting up, doesn't see the point but never stops to watch any bands play in his venue. the really good venues will usually say to me the first time i work there 'ah.. when we have xxx on their engineer sets up in this location, is that ok for you?' it usually is, unless you are playing a pub the size of your front room it really is not an issue,

Just my opinion:

Firstly a good sound engineer will have kit that is fit for purpose, or be available to advise on what is good kit, bad kit, loud kit etc. Try and fill a big room with inferior kit and youre in trouble.

A good engineer can also advise the band on little tips and tricks to help them get the best out of their gear and solve any monitoring problems etc.

Theres a world of difference going from a pub to say a marquee too, again having good sound knowledge is a big advantage especially when time is of the essence.

For me, its good practice to sort yourself at practice as a band - ie set up as you would at a gig (backline) and get a nice backline sound where everyone is happy and can hear each other. The amount of bands who seem to practice sat wherever they want, and facing wherever they want is frightening - when they get to a gig the whole set up will seem alien to them.

I learned PA and sound as I went along over the last 10-15 years and now im involved in other areas where PA is required take a lot of notice of equipment and whats available. Everyone works differently and the good sound guys have to be patient, know their stuff and get a good comprimise on sound between what the band can sound like and the equipment availble and the acoustics of the room.


Nice to have a good sound engineer on here in Howard - sure everyone can learn a lot from him and he's always very helpful too.

Make it loud, blow all the speakers get pissed fall over, try have sex with groupies go home....

Job done...!!!! ;))
XxX
\m/ \m/

As a sound fanatic.... something I really am interested in, and love to do a spot of "mixing" now and again!!

to me, the sound guy is probably the most important part of the machine, you can have the best band in the world, but if you only know one thing, this limits you as a band, ie, i'm a guitarist and this is the sound i'm after.. blah blah blah.....

as a musician, I also think you gotta have a lot of faith in your sound engineer too.

as for the comment right at the top about in a small pub, how many times have you been watching, or playing and heard the comment " i cant hear the bass" or " i cant hear the singer".... this may not just be a case of turn it up, it may be a fault that being stood behind the PA you cant hear it?? or maybe something else is over powering it???

as a sound guy, I try to work with the band, asking what they want from me, as well as what I want from them!!

is there a method, everybody I would say has a different way, so no right way or wrong way. as long as it works for all parties concerned.

I personaly work drums, bass, guitars, keys vocals then monitors for check and quick mix, then a full song mix.
but comunication is the word from both sides, BASS PLAYERS.... TURN THE FEKK DOWN!!!!!

Nowt wrong with them ;-) We don't use backline and our kit is electric. The few times we do play places where we have to take the PA Lynn or, very rarely, I will do it. Before it upsets any union or anything in terms of "qualification" or prompts any comments as to "a professional engineer could do it better" (to which the answer is probably "no, actually, you can't") Lynn ran her own PA company for years and I started my working life doing both FOH and engineering in studio's until the 20 hour days 7 days week got too much...

The point about pubs and PA's is valid to an extent given a: too many bands believe they need half a K wound up to 11 each as backline (just in case you missed it we don't use backline and our kit is electric :-)) and to get the true benefits of a PA it usually needs to be louder than the band and b: the number of pubs where it is possible to get a true single FOH position is rare - too many pillars, nooks and crannies.

Of course, and wholly IMHO, there are too many "engineers" these days. I used to work in a studio that morphed into the one of the first two UK branches of a major Australian school (we opened London virtually simoultaeneously) and the sheer number of people paying what I believed at the time to be a lot of money was incredible! I guess its like the "why can't we get gigs, after all there's only 2000 bands after 300 venues" blogs we see quite often ;-)

Our sound guy for Mama is part of the band really. It helps that he is a Genesis fanatic who knows the music inside out.

Vital part of getting the sound right.

best wishes

John

Simples, if it sounds good it is good!!!

I have a couple of 'rules of thumb' that can be bent/broken pretty quick.

1) See the band first, and make sure you have enough rig for the gig - in other words don't bring a knife to a gunfight!!

2) Listen to the band without vocals and backline only, to work out what needs leveling up with what. Also at this point you'll find out whose backline is too loud, and how 'beamy' the guitar cabs are. 4*12 for example are very beamy, and quite quiet off axis.

3) Get monitors right before out front vocals. If the band onstage can hear themselves well, you stand a much better chance of getting a good gig. A good lead vocal mic is a must. An SM58 is bare minimum. Something with a tighter pickup pattern to reduce feedback, and one that the singer has spent time selecting so that it suit his/her voice is best. Cheap wireless to be avoided!!

4) Listen to the room, and mix to suit the room acoustics, this can be done by leaving certain instruments out of the mix, killing the top end a bit, or using your system processor, if you're lucky enough to have one.

5) This one's for the bands - garbage in equals louder garbage out. Turds can be polished but they're still turds - and drummers I am especially looking at you and your knackered played to death drum heads!!

6) Sound check is not rehearsal - if you don't know the song now, you don't know it well enough to gig it!!

Anyway enough of my soapbox!