NWB - Community Blog

Quite right...would be good if venues ticked the 'disable comments' box when posting, but they really shouldn't have to

Agreed and Agreed.

I am in the MU, I'm not short sighted or selfish.
I guess the blog your referring to is the one I had a rant over regarding its pay fee structure, and quite right too in my opinion.
It's an insult to offer expenses on the basis that they have to pay for staff and heating or that it hasn't got the foot fall, when equally the bands have to pay for just as much if not more to do the gigs,often playing for below minimum wage when the travel, set up, playing, strip down, drive home is taken into account, and probably works out less than any bar staff's hourly rate.
I'd be more inclined to agree with you and the venue if it said it was having a hard time of things and could bands who wanted to play there contact them to see if they could do a deal.
Thinking outside of the box is something they and bands need to do, put on theme nights, offer punters a hotpot or a few butties, bands I've been in have done it and it brings in the punters.
Offering expenses is not the way to solve anyones cashflow.
But to take your point, I'll shut up.
N

Agree Neil ;o)

I don't!

We've all more or less agtreed that a band going out for £200 only gets expenses...whats the difference between five members of a band going out on a 100 mile rounfd trip and coming back with £40 each and a solo artist going out locally for £40 (with PA provided).

If anything the latter is the wisest and most cost effective thing to do..

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, however if anybody's insulting people on here its the venues that pay £180 or less for a four piece band...but I guarantee some members of MU play gigs like that.
Thats far more insulting in pro rata terms than what this pub is offering

+ 1 for ST on this one.

The worst thing on this site is negativity and nothing seems to cause it more than this issue.

There are bands and artists happy to take opportunities as they see them; the rants at venues about being 'insulting' does not help these people, or the people having the rant.

The whole issue of 'expenses' and 'bar staff rates' etc just doesn't have any effective weight for most of us because we aren't doing it to make a living (but the bar staff and venues are). Consider this - if you cancel a gig or your band splits up, you won't have major problems putting food on the table. If a venue folds, then several people lose their major income.

We all welcome and try to support new bands on here, can't we extend the same courtesy to venues?

AYP

agreed Asa, it really annoys me when venues are very clear about what they pay in their blog, or even if theyre offering an unpaid gig at their venue its their choice, there is absolutely no need for the comments such as "i wouldnt even get out of the bed to go to the bathroom for that" , or "it costs me a tenner to drive my Humvee round to the paper shop" , ive stuck up for venues a few times when theyve had such retorts, some friends of mine that own a famous pub in stockport had similar responses when they posted a very clear blog stating their terms very clearly,and im also fed up of reading the same old blog arguments again and again, its really spoiling what is a superb site which is very valuable for every one of us lets be honest, and there are people that treat a free vital site like this with contempt :0(

All points duly noted, but my opinion was not contemptuous of the site and in fact is probably the first time I've had a rant over something, it however remains the same on the matter which for and from me is now closed. N

[IMG]

The venues fee is contentious to lots of people on here, not all I agree, but to quite a few!
The guy from the pub put his cards on the table and some of us answered ,from all different view points. I dont think any one was overly rude to him considering what he was asking? ( unless some one has put on something since i read the original thread) I wish the pub (all pubs in fact) all the best, I really do, but its a forum and unless someone has been libelous or overly rude I cant really see an issue here.
I can see a point for a solo act to play there,I dont know their fee's in all honesty, but I guess they are on a lot more and are on a different pay structure to most other pub acts.

Wouldn't want to upset you Rob, but, if an individual posts a blog he/she must expect comments, complimentary or otherwise, after all this is a country where the right to free speech prevails.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" - somebody important said that - I think.
So, everybody has a valid point and God Bless NWB for providing that platform - and not even charging 'espenses'.

x

Read it again Tony.

AYP

+1 ST
+1 Night Train
+1 Rob
+1 AYP

Err ! havent we been asking for a seperate Wanted section for a few years now ????

Yehh agreed anyway ,

the sooner a fee is introduced the better...say so much per band (say up to five members) and that gives unlimited access to contacts/tel no's/bands wanted etc. Still free for venues and people who just want restricted access

Just a thought

+1 for fee

Err fee ! No way , i get all my gigs just the way i allways have , its called useing yer Nouse , ! do what we all did before the in terweb , call the venue or call in !

No Thanks

Ps, dont get me wrong the site is good ,Cert not not great ! it aint been that for a while now , but its handy now and then , but soz , it aint worth a fee !

Only my Opinion , Tho

I wonder what those who read but don't usually post think? I read the £40 a gig post, thought it disrespectful and was tempted to post but bit my tongue on the grounds it was so daft someone else was bound to step into the bear trap.
i tend to think that when someone offers less than minimum wage for a 3 or 4 piece then they deserve to have their ear bent but moreover i think we have several separate issues here:
1. differing venues with differing respect for performers and different abilities to pay - and no universally recognised pay structure.
2. differing ability performers, some wanting to get a leg up and unable to command what the seasoned performers can expect.
3. some musicians doing it only for for a bit of fun, others as a weekend job and others as a primary income stream - where a jobbing musician uses his night and weekend job as a genuine part of his/her income and is competent and prepared, I understand their distress with hobbyists intentionally or otherwise undercutting a sensible fee and taking minimum wage for a skilled job.
musicians are as guilty of double standards as venues - try getting a straight answer on here about what bands can afford or think decent to pay an engineer or crew (no don't start posting my stress levels don't need boosting this early in the week!)
While the musical community is so desperate we have little hope of finding a reasonable middle ground

as Patrick Swayze said - "be Nice!"

If he calls your mom "a cock suckin whore!" - he's just trying to provoke a response!

BE NICE!


too many keyboard hero's on here!!!

So let's all roll over and die eh? It's not enough that venues have been dictating to muso's for well over 2 decades now, constantly lowering band fees whilst hiking up beer prices. Now most of you agree with it for Heavens sake!!

Where's your self worth??

Somebody forms an opinion that the £40 on offer is a bit of an insult, and the needy, greedy, desperate, cliquey weekend warriors, jump down his throat and tell him to back the fuck off!!

What's the point of an open forum if people can't voice their opinions?

Posted by ST:
"Furthermore, I'm not trying to stop anyone from having an opinion. All I'm asking is that people bear in mind the consequences for the rest of the community when they express their opinions on the blogs."

Has anybody actually stopped to consider the consequences of constantly undercutting others in "the community"? Of course you haven't. Because most of those self praising weekend warriors, couldn't give a toss about anybody else as long as they're getting a night away from the missus, or indulging themselves in their "escape from reality" routines.

I'm guessing that most people on here earn, on average, about £80 net, if they're lucky, by doing a 2 night stint. Wouldn't you rather be getting that for ONE night, therefore halving your travelling costs/food expenses/wear and tear etc, etc? And if you were only out ONE night a week, there'd be no need to worry about over exposure and there's more gigs for everybody else.

Surely that would be better for EVERYBODY in "the community"??

Community spirit? My arse. Some of you couldn't even spell it.

@4most wanted - couldn't have put it better myself!!

@4most Wanted and Fireblademalc- and what about open mic nights and venues requiring originals bands? and festivals? Are all these taking the P as well?

Ha Ha ! well said that man , i look at it this way , i ask for fuck all and i expect fuck all for free , thats why i work hard to get my gigs , i dont and WONT Arsehole for them . (Hence the no fee remark )

My coommunity spirit is shown when i get some back ! Which of late on ballane , i realy do think I have been rather let down, But hey , i aint gonna whinge , I just have a very good memory !

just try getting a Plumber, or an Electrician, or a Plasterer, or a Tiler, or a Bricklayer, or a Motor Mechanic, or ................... to do anything relating to their trade at anytime for a reduced fee, never mind for F*ck All, at ANY time, even if they do enjoy doing it!!!!
So yes they are taking the PISS!!
If they have to resort to these tactics, their Business Plan is lacking something.
As previously stated by myself and other worthy contributors, taking a low or no fee only serves to undermine the value placed on other Artistes and will ultimately prove destructive to the venue concerned.

I think people who have an opinion to voice should be allowed to voice it, but in a positive and constructive manner. Yes £40 for a trio or band (whether originals or covers) is laughable but there's no need for open hostility towards the offer. Just turn it down. State that you're turning it down if you must but do so in a civil fashion.

I'm not getting sucked into the broader argument that others have introduced later in this blog but I will say I'm getting increasingly hacked off with the amount of foul language being thrown about on here. I swear like a trouper in person at the best of times but there's no place for it here. It simply displays ignorance and disrespect all round to use such a limited and ugly vocabulary. I don't understand why it isn't or can't be filtered out as it is on so many other discussion forums.

I think a lot of people see it as an affront which has provoked the foregoing responses.
As for the bad language????????

Another slant on this that I thought about:

It's good to get paid a decent amount for your work. Plumbers and Electricians do. Why not performance artists?

Here's how I see why. These 2 reasons are why I got out of music as a way of making a living.

1: A band, to its members is a collective unit. Each individual has to share in the payment at the end of the night. But to venues? Are we not a commodity? A single unit item to be bought at as low a cost as possible to increase a profit margin? Seems like standard business to me.

2: There's a difference between us and Plumbers & Electricians. They are necessities. We are not. It's hard to command a high price if you are effectively a luxury.

Now I'm not stating these as facts, and I know for sure a lot of the PUB venues we play in try their best for the bands. But it's something to chew on.

Market forces dictate cashflow. Fair has never come into it.

Different perspective:

I'm of an age with most of you here - 45 - and have been playing in bands since I was 13. I'm the second youngest in Call Me Diva and the others have similar experience. We have good kit. We play a lot of gigs - or we did until Paul knackered his arm - in the 2 and half years up until Paul's arm died we did between 250 and 300 - do the maths. We're tight as the proverbial. We sell singles. We usually get some kind of audience. We've been in session on t'radio more times than I can recall. We all, well 3 of us, have full time jobs. You get the picture? We're not a young start-up band looking for a leg-up onto a hard to crack scene or reliant on our music for our income.

What do we look for in a venue? Good stage. Reputation for getting an audience who are there to see a certain flavour of music which we fit. Preferably in-house PA, sound guy and lights.

Sounds like lots of other bands on here - although there have been times when the worst slaters of venues aren't actually with any band whatsoever. The difference with us is that we play original music and, unless we get to a next *stage* our usual fee ranges between nothing and a few quid from door sales.

I still have all me gear, in fact I keep buying more. I have to travel to gigs, pay for rehearsals blah blah... Happy to do this. Music is what I do, gigs are amongst the places where I do it.

Lets not conflate too many issues here and remember that it takes different strokes and let people get on with doing what we all enjoy - playing, booking or simply listening to music.

@Fireblademalc - Well then I'm afraid that you are not living in the real world if you expect to be paid for turning up for an open mic night. This is not a new thing - 'free and easy's' have been going on for years and serve their purpose. Unsigned bands never have and never will receive a wage until their following demands/warrants it. Finally I'm glad that you don't play at festivals, they are for chilled people not music nazis.

Sorry for the rant, it's not like me but I think that your last comment was at best...silly.

What I find hard to get my head round is that I know a bloke who plays cricket to a high club standard....every summer he goes and stands on a cricket field once a week for 6 hours, running around and having a right good time.....does he get paid....no, he has to pay subs to play. Then take my neighbour who is handy with a golf club.....he pays £500 a year to play. It just so happens I play guitar in band and guess what it costs me too, but hey once in a while I get to split £150 five ways with the rest of my band mates.....so it covers my costs and I get to live out my dream for free.....unlike the two folk I mention, who have to pay to live out their little dream.

Now I suppose if you're a pro muso, trying to make a living, then you need to take money to pay your mortgage and to pay for your skills as your proffession, just like the plumbers and electricians referred to above and just like me when I turn out 5 days a week to do my 9 - 5.....and thats the rub, we have pros trying to earn a crust in the same market place as the rest of us, who just do this for a bit of fun.

Its all very well expressing opinions when they're asked for, but this was a simple ad for somebody to play a gig (at a rate most band members actually receive).There is simply no need to pass a comment...does anybody write to McDonalds telling em they don't pay enough???

If we're gonna go down this road, then if somebody puts an ad on saying they wanna pay £200 for a Gibson LP, then should all jump on their back telling em how dare they offer so little "How dare you offer so little, I wouldnt sell my LP for less than a thousand etc etc"? Its the same priniple..where's the line drawn?

@ Tubthumper
Agree about the swearing too...ok if its spontaneous in speech, but to go to the effort of typing it out is just bonkers....and bearing in mind this site is so easily accessed via Google etc it just reflects poorly.

Don't bring tradesmen into it Mick. there's nowt worse than somebody earning bugger all for 4 years whilst they do an apprenticeship only to find that the minute the economy picks up, then loads of Eastern Europeans come in, undercut the wage structure and devalue the said professions.
Trust me, right now, every teenager in Poland is learning Wishing Well, Teenage Kicks and Sex on Fire, ready to take over the pub band scene!!!

;0)

@Jez - good job the pub scenes dying of boredom then ;-)

"# Posted by Guy (bass - call me diva) - 30/01/2012, 22:48 (GMT)
@Jez - good job the pub scenes dying of boredom then ;-)"

Hahahahah

...and they might speak and write better bloody English than some of the posters at the center of current arguments!!!

;0)

That'll be centre :-)

Sorry - couldn't resist!

@Bad Horsie (Mick) Fair comment, you're quite right. However the point is (as I see it) that if Weekend Warriors/Hobbyists/Desperate Daves, refused to take any gigs for any or no fee, the venues would be forced to pay a 'proper' rate or do without 'live' entertainment and be left with the alternative of a disco - and these guys wont do anything for under £100.
A bit of lateral thinking from pub managers could I feel sure, make any venue a roaring success - it aint rocket science.
Incidentally, fair doesn't come into it.

@Guy - could be onto something there!!! Get a few polish classics in to liven things up!! lol

;0)

Incidentally just out of interest, how many pro musicians are there on here that derive their income from solely playing pub venues...none! And certainly no pro musician I know would feel threatened by some little boozer offering £40 for someone to do a bit of singing...in fact most would welcome music going 'live' at grass roots level...if somebody experiences it for the first time it might encourage em to get out more.

And as for the open mic argument I've had loads of name bands coming to my open mics over the years, including McFly...should I have paid them? If so, how much?

good spot Guy - glad somebody's on the ball!!! lol

:0)

@ Jez
Teenagers in Poland are a little more musically sophisticated than that :D

@ Nightrain "And as for the open mic argument I've had loads of name bands coming to my open mics over the years, including McFly...should I have paid them? If so, how much?"

bet you wish you'd filmed them now though!

@NT - the ones I worked with all seemed to like Green Day! Couldn't tell if they were teenagers; it was a case of one tache fits all!

:0)

(man they could drink!!!)

@cottonhouse, I didn't say I would expect to be paid for an open mike - I think open night is what it is and so I wouldn't go and play and expect to be paid - simples!!
And as pointed out many times previously, anything which reduces the pot for those earning a living from music/entertainment is detrimental on the whole to all of us.
To use Cricketers and in fact any sport at an Amateur level as an analogy, overlooks the fact that nobody involved with these practices is making any money from them.

See: 4most wanted above - very eloquently stated.

And to the Language Police - get over yourselves!

Once again all of you who want to blame venues for your decline in faith are missing the point, the whole point and nothing but the point here:

NO ONE is telling you what to accept to play.

NO ONE is dictating how much bands have to play for.

NO ONE is calling you worthless

and
NO ONE is trying to pay you less than the bar staff.

A venue is putting out an offer.

You can take it if you want.

If you don't the world won't stop turning.

If you do, it won't mean all venues offer this.

Just like bands, different venues operate different pricing structures in different circumstances.

When are we going to get over ourselves FFS?

'My names Al and I'm a sign maker. It's been 5 days since I did a gig'.

AYP













PS I wish I could stop caring........

@AYP - Dentists are the ones who CAN stop caring - Oops sorry, that's Caries!

Oh well, that's Monday over with, nearly..

Next???

Simples, If you want to play for £40.00, if you don't, then don't.

I'm out

So are we all happy to agree to disagree now? Perhaps your energies would be better spent getting involved in the february album wriitng month (well two blogs have failed to attract any attention) where the challenge is to write and upload 14 songs during february. http://fawm.org - much more constructive and aren't we all supposed to musicians/players of instruments ;-)

@ Guy - no we are not.

There is absolutley no excuse for the people who come on here and have a go at venues for making an offer.

AYP

Ive been trying to put the point across about valuing your skills for a while. some dont get it, some do, but thats everyones perogative.

I dont mind who agrees and who doesnt, about any subject, what annoys me, and is probably why a lot of people leave the site, is the responses people get - immediate snappy responses, bad language, petty childlike remarks etc - to me its water of a ducks back, but it doesnt achieve anything.

If people agree or disagree the responses should be constructive and thought out well. How else do you expect to try and put your point across? Im big enough and ugly enough to change my mind if i can be convinced im incorrect.

You should always be polite, as said above I swear all day long, but wouldnt dream of being rude, disrespectful and swearing on line to people ive never met - especially those in a similar environment - whats the point and what does it achieve? Nothing. Theres enough assholes in the world who try and make your life a misery, this forum should be a constructive forum for everyones benefit. Otherwise whats the point?

I have respect for those who agree or disagree but respond in a respectful manner and put their points across well. I have no respect for anyone who replies in a crass or rude way.

To me swearing, stupid remarks etc is the equivalent of trolling. I just dont rise to it.


As for the £40 gig. I dont agree with it, but as mentioned above, there are original bands who as a rule play for free or expenses who may fancy it.

Thats the way to 'discuss' not 'argue'. The original band put the point across well and perhaps has a fair point because as a rule that style of music doesnt get a fee.

@ Guy

I was 80% through finishing a new one, but got drawn into this....hahahahahaha!!!!!
I was doing the words on my laptop and kept seeing new adds to the blog come up......

@Al - agree with you 120% but there are some battles you ain't gonna win - especially this one on this forum which just keeps going round in circles every month or so when another venue tries to do something and gets to be made to feel like they should be keeping an extra eye on the kids.

whats going on at the moment....do we have some undergound conspiricy trying to ruin the very point of this site. Over the last couple of days its been pretty edgy here, and some issues have been discussed....and discussed...and...well u know what I mean. Frankly its getting out of hand. Now stop it u naughty kids!!!

Some venues are offerin more beans than others too
It's been said before, take the offer or don't, end of story, TROLLS !!!!!! lmfao, windin each other up with pointless snipes n bitchin like a tart !!!
who's to say some act who has retired and ain't got the gear anymore wouldn't love to do this gig or someone who through ill health can't lug gear about anymore !!!!
Get out there, get the gigs you wanna play at the fee you wanna be paid like most bands with a healthy gig list do !!!

We have a search bar for bands as well as venues on NWB"s & a little thing for sending messages in private ,lets start using them ,in emergencys its great for bands or venues putting a blog up but why not have a look around & check out bands profiles & venues as well ,it makes things alot more interesting instead of just sticking a blog up saying "band/s wanted " or bands saying "dates free in our diary" it means f..k all to anyone ,start using this great site in the proper way instead of using just top of the head blogs because there are some great bands & venues out there to discover & if you don"t some other band or venue will ...your loss! ,we"ll be using it this weekend to find a good venue & a good band to watch end of !

andy .

Exactly mate, it's a website. Open to everybody, not just the "chosen few". And by asking the administrators to be more selective about the contributors, speaks more of your ignorance and snobbery than I ever could.

Here you go mate, posted 25th Jan 2011:
nwb.co/.../free-venue-thursday-nights-solo-artists-or-duo

Then almost a year to the day later (30th Jan 2012 to be exact):
http://nwb.co/blog/post/36658/sk13hr/artist-wanted-stockport

Do you think it's possibly because his original plan never worked? That any self respecting musician decided not to take him up on his offer because they too, found it insulting? Or maybe you don't really know that much about the "real world". That's because you can't see past the end of your nose. Absolutely no idea of the bigger picture.

You talk about "selfish and shortsighted" whilst you're waving your "viva la community" flag, but are you really interested in the community as a whole, or are you really interested in what's best for you?
As long as there's a gig at the end of the week to escape your mundane existence, to hell to those who rely on what little is left to earn from it. And whilst there are people like you who are willing to roll over and have your belly tickled as long as you're living your dream, you're killing it for the people who don't want to go down without a fight.

A bit like how the French and Italian people were labelled "surrender monkeys", whilst the real heroes were getting shit on.

You say "it's not my place" but then you go on to dictate to us how we should think, behave and react.
Out and out abuse is of course wrong and against the rules, a little banter with venues that try it on is fine with me. If it's within the website rules then it should be allowed, no? I don't think that topics such as gig fees should be untouchable.
I simply can't afford to play for less than it costs me to play.

Jon

"# Posted by Fireblademalc - Depping Bass P... - 30/01/2012, 22:52 (GMT)
@Bad Horsie (Mick) Fair comment, you're quite right. However the point is (as I see it) that if Weekend Warriors/Hobbyists/Desperate Daves, refused to take any gigs for any or no fee, the venues would be forced to pay a 'proper' rate or do without 'live' entertainment and be left with the alternative of a disco - and these guys wont do anything for under £100.
A bit of lateral thinking from pub managers could I feel sure, make any venue a roaring success - it aint rocket science.
Incidentally, fair doesn't come into it."

Just so you know Malc, my comment wasn't directed at you. We just hit on a couple of similar points from a different angle. If it's any consolation I can see where you're coming from.

Wow - I have watched this site and contributed for the last couple of years - I really do despair at the amount of sad little people that come on here just to try and sound big.

Really do you have so many issues stacked up from when your Mum told you what to wear as a kid, to your other half telling you what to do as an adult - are you really that angry with the world and where you have ended up?!

Christ on a bike - go away, sort your own strange view on the world out and then maybe come back with something other than this constant drivel that you spout!

I wonder if other hobbyists like stamp collectors or train spotters get this irate - somewhat unlikely.....

Do bear in mind, you are just a hobbyist, you might have 'been a pro' at some point, most of us have, me included, difference is we don't all have the honking great big chip on our shoulder that makes us feel that the pub scene owes us something and should be honoured by us gracing their stage.

I ramble - get over yourselves or just shut up - we are all bored of you now.

Is this still going on?

All these people claiming to make a living from playing pubs complaining because somebody has the opportunity to earn £40. Dont they realise its a better offer than a pub paying £200 for a 5 piece band?

To everybody knocking the guy (and to be honest I dont know him/her, know the pub, or even know if its a troll!)...just answer this YES or NO...do you seriously make a living playing pubs? YES or NO??

4mostwanted, Delirium, Bad Horsie, Fireblade etc...????

I'm with you Asa. Market forces will prevail. And things always change.
Find answers to the challenges and you'll continue to succeed. Try and swim against the tide or control the market equals failure.

Look at Kodak.

No, I certainly don't make a living out of it and never have. My circumstances mean that overall I need to cover all the costs of playing via gig fees. I have inexpensive but reliable gear and I generally break even. I feel that bands should receive a reasonable fee, and if the market is such that this average fee becomes too low then many players like me will be forced out of regular involvement in live music.

Jon

I'm appalled that you're all so selfish as to pay full overblown prices for flatscreen TV's and computers and the like. Everyone knows it costs a fraction of the price they charge to actually cover all the costs and still make a profit but whilst all you thoughtless "I'm alright Jack" types insist in just going in to shops and buying stuff off the shelves without protest what chance do we have of bringing prices down?

I mean, we all use money, shouldn't we be ganging together on this. Don't we all owe it to each other on account of our shared use of the same currency to make a stand? Some of us rely more on money than others and the better off of you are frankly ruining it for the rest of us. I may even have to rethink my strategy and explore other ways of making money - perhaps in a manner that isn't so readily available in the open market economy that prices can easily be driven down on account of a surplus of supply over demand.

So come on folks, where's your communist spirit. It costs me money to go out and make money and my money would go further if you would all respect the fact that we're all in this together. So think about that next time you're paying £999 for that new Plasma telly when we know it will be £499 in the next sale. In the meantime I'll carry on watching my boxy old analogue model and it will be all your fault.

Or not. You owe me nothing. This isn't a collective. We're just people united by a common interest. If your gigs aren't paying you enough to live off, get another job. Obviously music is not so skilled a job as to preclude others from having a dabble at it. Get over it.

@ Jon - Delerium.

To be fair though Jon, all hobbies cost money - I bet you spend less on playing in a year than an amateur golfer does on his hobby.......and the golfer makes nothing back ever.

I don't know much about golf but I'm sure that I do pay less.
I think most covers bands are somewhere between a hobby and a profession, in that we do provide a service to pubs, and we are fairly professional in what we do and our commitment to entertain the punters and encourage punters to spend money and return to the pub to see other bands. If it was just a hobby then we'd just be playing our original material instead of 99% covers and not carting round a big PA and lights. That's my opinion and I'm happy for others to disagree.

Jon

One simple parameter that could define the hobby/pro argument.

Do you pay tax on it.


*tickticktickticktick*

My view is this:

Like everything you get what you pay for - you are not going to get quality bands playing for £40 simples. Maybe some local karaoke mini-skirt who's mate says she sounds like Adele.

Markets changing & venues forcing fees down go hand in hand (why is it being discussed as two completely different factors here?)....the market is currently affecting every venue so tell me this...

...if venues like Hindley Arms, Jolly Nailor and Griffin contacted you & said fees are now £40 would you still book your band there?

It makes me laugh how you all jump on the back's of those disagreeing with what the venue have offered, yet you have absolutely no interest in booking your band there for the same reason!

If the venue in question puts acts on and only pays £40 so be it; I just fear others will follow, 'quality' taken right out of the market and we're all left with karajoke mini-skirt wannabes in our locals.

I'm well aware markets dictate 'cost' before all the Alan Sugar's quirp up....but I bet your bottom dollar you'd have left the circuit long before average fee's get to £40.

# Posted by Bad Horsie (Mick) - 31/01/2012, 11:54 (GMT)

"One simple parameter that could define the hobby/pro argument.

Do you pay tax on it.


*tickticktickticktick*"

No we don't pay tax because the band does not make a profit - all fees are used to pay for band equipment, fuel, food etc etc. Maybe it's more like voluntary work where someone might work very hard and in a professional manner and can be paid a reasonable amount of expenses, but not a wage?
Jon

Far too complicated..

If you take money (any money) for playing then you are obliged to provide a professional service, and to entertain. With a hobby (golf cricket etc) you're under no obligation to provide anything. The argument is a non starter. You take any paid gig, you're a service paid for by the people who agreed your contract and terms on the night. You're contractually bound to do a job of work, not to piss about with a passtime.

If you have a laugh doing it then great.

The issue, and the only issue here, is that venues put a different value of what they can afford, or are prepared to pay. That's down to them and their circumstances. There's genuine ones, and ones who will try to play the game to get things reduced. That's life.

The attitude of "if you don;t like it don't do it", is fair enough, but ... should we as bands and venues be outing those that pay way below minimum wage (performance time - travel time and costs of the tools of your trade don't count). The pub in question is offering £40 for an hour and a half's work with a 15-30 minute break. This is roughly £20/hr or a trio on min wage.

Personally I wouldn't do it as the cost would outway the benefit, and I believe that there should be an obligation on the part of the venues to pay a decent amount for what they're getting in return.

Lastly if anyone here is making a living out of a share of £400 a weekend then please let me know how you do it ?

@ 4mostwanted ....
PLUS 100 million !
Stick together DO NOT adhere to these criminal fees.
before u know it , an act will do this gig for 40 quid . so the pub down the road will only pay the same because this guy gets away with it ...then the pub across the road , oh then the landlords mate in the next town does the same... STOP IT ...
your fee should be RISING with inflation at the very least not going down.
In my experience this year alone , i have noticed BIGGER crowds than last years crowds at the same venues , the entertainment business is increasing do not let anyone tell you different.
People only make note of struggling/closing venues ...what about the venues that are opening and venues that have just started to put entertainment on ? no one notices them....

There's an agency advertising on here for all sorts of bands, usually at £180 a pop. Thing is they are putting bands into pubs at what most of you seem to feel is a reduced rate (and making money themselves). Project this into the future. Venues will get "good" acts and the only way you will be able to compete will be to either accept the reduced fees or spend more time watching the goggle box.

That is something you should be far more worried about than 1 venue. Put this much energy into convincing the venues you play at to stick with direct bookings otherwise I'm afraid folks you're gonna get Cowelled!

im afraid that is a poor agency then...
Never forget the angencies work for us not the other way round , i use some agencies and I dictate what I want, then they take whatever they want AFTER that,
If you wanna give in and go out for shit money then thats upto you ...
But when more venues jump on the el cheapo band wagon , do not be surprised when u cant get the money u want .
It is wrong that agencies are puttin bands into pubs...reason why...there aint enought money in it for the act after the agency has made some butty, so dont do it.
Go to the venue , phone them up , drop off merchandise, do some leg work.
You wont believe the amount of times i have been to a venue as a punter enjoying a 21st or charity or dinner and left some business cards and stuff and got a phone call 6 months later for a booking.
It works.70 percent of my diary is direct...rest is agency to fill my gaps on MY terms.

"Never forget the angencies work for us not the other way round"

Thats how it should be. But...The worrying thing is that is changing. The agency in question seem to be getting more and more venues and the prices (bearing in mind the gigs, fees and contact details will be documented should Mr taxman appear, so youll be straight in the sh7t if you dont pay tax).

If they got hold of an entire town or a good crux of the circuit, you would be completely at the mercy of what said agency said was the going rate if you wanted to play there. Regardless of what they charged the venues.

Guy is right, you cant ignore that kind of threat, and worryingly it makes sense for a venue to go with them, Decent quality bands, one point of contact and low fees and higher chance of filling any cancellations.

@ST - Thanks for the breakdown there. Did you actually think of that all on your own?

They say ignorance is bliss, you must be fucking ecstatic.

Although one or two people told the guy at Flying Dutchman to shove his deal up his arse, I think more were pissed off at his "It's £40 quid and think yourself lucky you're getting that" attitude.

Or was that another point you missed in your whining, pleading appeal?

And considering your gigging days are coming to an end and you have no vested interest, what was the point of your initial whining anyway?

It must be a wonderful, cosy little place in your rosy little bubble, enjoying your second income and telling everyone else how they should conduct themselves, but not everyone else is an ostrich. Or are you suffering the more severe condition of head firmly rooted up rectum?

Have a read of Sugar Bullets post above. Now there's somebody in the real world looking at the bigger picture.

I agree with everything ST has said there which is a rare, if not unique, occurrence!

I think everyone finds a £40 fee for a band abhorrent (Alec has rightly pointed out that for some solo performers it may have its takers), what I find untenable, as has been said by many and seemingly deliberate overlooked as people have climbed on to soap boxes, is that there are ways and means of expressing yourself to other users of the forum and being openly hostile and abusive is not the way. It simply wouldn't be tolerated on a moderated forum so why lower your standards to that of the schoolyard simply because you know you will get away with it.

I'm quickly beginning to tire of this place. Not on account of the repeated arguments as I believe everyone has the right to debate whatever they want ad infinitum if there is a mechanism to do so (which this site provides) but if people are going to carry on like hooligans on a football terrace shouting the odds to anyone who holds a contrary opinion then I'm out of here. I don't care who disagrees with me, but when people start to show the level of disrespect towards each other that I have seen too frequently of late then it's not an environment I feel safe to be in, nor one that I wish to try and contribute positively to. Which is a shame as I feel that I have offered a lot of myself with no hope or expectation of reward, and have more to give.

Nic, the place will be lessened if you drop out. Stick to your guns Missus.

I agree with Nicola and unusually ST...there's a 'pack' mentality developing on here too which is unhealthy. There used to be a very active site called Bolton Music Forum, but as time passed any newcomers that went against the accepted 'norm' were set upon, just as that Flying Dutchman (and quite a few others recently) has been. Thats now all but defunct
Look what happened two days ago with the Rollercoaster no show blog.

@ST - I'm really not interested in arguing with anybody except for those blinkered people who think everything is hunky dory. It isn't mate. I've said it a thousand times. Some people need to wake up and start smelling the coffee. The music scene in the North West is in serious trouble. And some of those who bleat about what they do for the community are the very people who are systematically destroying the very heart of what it is they claim to be protecting.

As Delirium has stated above: "You say "it's not my place" but then you go on to dictate to us how we should think, behave and react." Exactly that. Or maybe you're trying to score more brownie points for the whining martyr that you come across as.

Or are you particularly distressed about somebody actually disagreeing with you? Again, you come across as someone who surrounds themselves with sycophants so when somebody actually bursts your precious little bubble, your whole world collapses.

So you're defending the rights of people on here eh? Does that make you a highly respected and valuable member of the community? Actually it makes you sound more like a drama queen.

Do you actually read any of the rants to see what pisses most people off? The piss heads, the cancellations, the closures? More importantly what is anybody doing about the situation?

Caving in and accepting the situation mostly, rather than trying to improve it.

And yes mate, I've been trying for years to try and improve it. But whilst there's widespread acceptance and apathy, I haven't got a cat in hells chance.

I CAN get my head round that concept mate. So enough of your condescending bullshit. I don't need to justify myself to you or any other deluded wannabe on here. But for your information, I used to be the owner/manager of a live music venue, so I can see both perspectives. But what most of you will not be told is that your acts have become dated, stale, predictable, boring and unimaginative. Playing 40 year old rock songs to a 25 year old audience, IN MY OPINION, doesn't work. But some people refuse to accept change. Refuse to accept that change is necessary in order to evolve.

I honestly believe, in this current economic climate, you have to have something extremely special to entice people away from their supermarket beer, their own sofa where they can smoke in peace, and the comfort of knowing they're not going to get their ears assaulted by a third rate screaming banshee trying to be a third rate Brian Johnson, fourth rate Robert Plant or a fifth rate Paul Rodgers.
Or even worse, the dreaded X factor wannabe.
And let's be honest, some are not that special no matter how many times they tell themselves (or their friends tell them) they are.

And sorry, but I also disagree. Apathy IS widespread. That's the reason some people won't change. Because they can't be arsed.

So wind your neck in sunshine. I want what's best for bands, venues and punters so that everybody benefits. And it's not me with the "fuck you, I'm alright Jack" attitude.

For me its all bull . yeah its like shopping around you can now get a 3d tv for £350 but the quality is poor. slowly the pub scene is slipping into an abiss.

But having put my name back into the community scene nothing changes on here i still believe there is a clique and this proves it, we are not allowed an opinion otherwise its everyone jump on the controversial figure as usual.
ST and myself were in Whatever together for 5 years and I know he will tell it like it is whether u agree or not. i have been on the end of a tongue lashing from Mr Caton but its not personal as alot of people on here seem to think.

Who really cares they ll be another blog tomorrow that will upset the community. think ill start one all the usual suspects bite . At the end of it allopinions make the world go round baby.

MUFC