NWB - Community Blog

I think you may get a completely different picture there Mick. I think I remember Lee from The Kasuals stating that they had to move away from the pub venue scene as there really was no money in it. And the main money seems to be in corporate/function/tribute/holiday camp gigs.

It'd be interesting to see either way, but I don't think there's gonna be any quick fix.

Most certainly

Hi Mick

I hope this doesn't turn into a finger pointing blog because it's a valid question.
Speaking personally, I, like all of the other old troopers on here, have seen our profession change beyond recognition and wonder if I'd have started out as a pro if I'd have known how things were gonna turn out (of course I would have but I still wonder).
Personally, I accept the fact that we have to roll with the punches. It's a career choice and we all have the option to walk away and get a nine to five if it gets too hot in the kitchen but, for some reason, we don’t. A mate of mine says “it’s tough at the top, pop stars don’t cry”, he’s joking of course, it’s tough at the bottom as well!
I don’t think there’s anything ‘WRONG with the system in pub gigs’, I just think that the ‘system in pub gigs’ has taken too many kicks in the bollocks, it is what it is and there’s no point blaming anyone. We, musos and venues, are in the same boat, on the same side and fighting for a common cause. All I can suggest to improve the market is to offer the best value you can, that applies to venues as well. There are successful venues on here and some less so, look at what the successful ones are doing different…not much, maybe they have a bit more imagination, maybe they shell out a bit more cash, but there’s a dramatic difference between the two in terms of pints sold. Moneywise (and it IS an issue) I for one am on the same money as I was ten years ago and don’t expect that situation to change. I go from week to week, sometimes I’m in front, sometimes I'n behind, I often look in the diary and try to figure out how I’m going to get through the year…but I always manage it somehow and I wouldn’t say I’m ‘not happy with the market’, I’m too busy trying to adapt to market trends to expect any change.
So, my plan to ‘plan to improve the market as it stands’ is to offer better value, strive to improve and leave no stone unturned, that’s all I can suggest.

MN

You`re absolutely right Mick (N). There`s nothing wrong with the market. Its just not as favourable for the jobbing gigger as it used to be. You can`t change that - you just have to go with it.

Mick, it's funny you have done the comparison to 10 years ago.
The 3 "core" members of RFB have been playing together on and off since 1968. I have a photocopy of our Manager's Ledger from 1968 and we were averaging £17 10s per gig, that now equates to £244.70.
So with the going rate of a pub gig at around £200, we're getting less.
We all accept that and are happy to play for an agreed amount as it's nice to be able to meet up with mates/family etc.
The arse has fallen out of the Corporate/Function market, (but I think it will come back).
Weddings account for the majority of our Gigs and the Club scene is on it's arse.
One idea that has proved really popular is "self promotion"
Hire a room, sell tickets and roberts your whatsit. Only issue with that is greedy club secs. We did thi in a Social Club in Urmston one Friday night. Sold more tickets than the place could hold. The bar take was the biggest for years. Now instead of building on that with other bands, the club wanted us back every 4-6 weeks. it was sheer overkill.
We are currently looking at doing this on a regular basis BUT, with a number of bands in some sort of rotation. could be one answer to stimulate interest.

I am doing more teaching now which has meant that I no longer need 3-4 gigs a week. Hopefully I can stay like this until the music scene picks up. I have 5 of my own bands and I dep in another 2-3 and I still can't get 2 gigs a week! Having said that, I do what I want to do which limits gigging opportunities. I have said on many occasions on here that my previous band played pubs for £300 (10-15 years ago) and got that fee - admittedly we did take a following with us - but you can't BUY a £300 pub gig anymore.

Don't get me started on why the pub scene has died... we could be here all night.

As for the future, I just wait until summer when I can sit in a field with like minded people and listen to good music and chill.... and if one of my bands can get a slot at one of those festivals then I'm a happy bunny.

I should email Mervyn King and George Osbourne if I were you - as Fred Goodwin's opinions as of today are officially and royally wrong. Failing that, and not as a 'full time' (tho I've put some fecking time in!) musician - I cannot think the woes of the western world, issues within the EU, the questions of the Euro Crisis and it's effect on the Uk's debt issue is going to be sorted on this site...whether 'real' musicians or 'Airfix' musicians - of which I assume I am one - comment or pontificate upon.

As Diamond Dave would say - That's Life...

TTFN

My own view is (and I'm not trying to cause bother) is that there several factors. The first being baad bands. In the last couple of years I've seen bands with tone deaf singers , guitarists that are unable to play in tune or tune an instrumentnt, intoxicated band members causing mayhem, bands that seem to think that standing there staring at the fretboard constitutes a performance , bands that are clearly not suited to a venue take the gig anyway. I've seen a band use a 7K rig in a small venue. Next ive seen well meaning venues that are trying to promote live music come on NWB and advertise for bands wanted and get swamped with bands and book them without doing any home work or background and end up clearing the pub. For me the message to bands is. Rehearse to a good standard , buy a tuner and be able to tune up without one, put on a show. Invest in the best gear you can afford. And even if you don't do music professionally take onboard a pro attitude . Venues. First of all do your homwork. Is the band your booking any good ? Have you seen them. Have you contacted other venues they haveplayed at ? Do they have a reputation for cancelling / not turning up/ having a revolving door of members ? Do they book gigs regardless of wether members are available then draft in dep players from other bands. Are they band appropriate to the venue. Will that Pantera tribute work in a pub where the regulars are 50 plus? One bad band can cripple live music at a venue for good

Hi Mick, most of my suggestions to help both sides were included in my last blog post.

On the whole bands and venues need to start to re-invent almost the scene and think outside of the box.

Innovate rather than stagnate.Grooveman has said it all really, nice one Mr Grooveman.

Perhaps we should organise a NWB band and venue meeting somewhere with an agenda to constructively look and talk about how to regenerate and improve the current situation and even put together a "Code of Practice" which bands and venues can decide whether to sign upto, almost like a NWB charter.

I knows its a bit radical but something needs to happen.

Neil

@ MN,

The pub scene is one scene I have never really been apart of, I have done the odd gig with other bands in the past but didn't want to take the Kasuals down that road due to the money side of things. Some markets seem better than others, for example, we played Butlines, Minehead on Sunday night in Reds, Reds is the smaller room of the two, holds 1500+ whereas Centre Stage holds around 3000+.

Anyway, it was crammed to capacity, standing room only, I had a walk round whilst Marmalade were playing there set, I then took a stroll in to Centre Stage and that too was busy, not full.

The 60's weekends at Butlins are always well attended, same when we play the other holiday camps and the Warners Hotels, however there are still more acts than venues wanting work, you just have to have either a good agent or know the right people. Otherwise it can be a struggle to get going.

Lee :)

Sorry about the typing guys in using a tiny "smartphone" keyboard

You've seen us then Grooverman,lol....only a joke Mick dont delete.
I think if bands could stop taking themselves too seriously,they would build up a better relationship with venues and punters alike,take Bad Horsie,johnny Meerkat,oh and us for example.......T

Nail on the head exacly Tel, a lot of people forget its live entertainment rather than live music

yeh ,there's nothing more boring than watching a guitarist/singer staring at the floor 6 ft in front of em whilst performing.If you dont engage the punters ,your dead, no matter who, or how good you are.........T

@ Lee
I'm glad to read that Butlins weekends are still well attended. I used to play the Centre Stage at Minehead with Bootleg Slade on the seventies weekends and they were always packed. We used to do all the Butlins camps as our main source of gigs. The thing with those gigs is that they offered great value to the punters, like the mainstream festivals do. You could see far more 'name' and 'ex-name' acts, in one place, over one weekend than you could see at individual venues over the course of the year. I'm told that, because of budget cuts (yawn), the standard of in-house rigs and other facilities have dropped recently and I'm glad I was there when the times were good.
Other corporate opportunities are thin on the ground too.
Re; the pub market (which applies to most bands on here) I can only repeat what I said earlier:
Offer the best value you can, be realistic about fees, strive to improve and leave no stone unturned. I think adaptability is the answer.
MN

@MN,

All the rigs at Butlins were all overhauled for Martin systems a year or so ago, apart from last Sunday all my experiences at Butlins have been great. I mean stage sound etc.

Last Sunday was a bit of an ordeal, at the line check everything was great, when we went on all I could hear was my bass coming back at me through the monitor along with the drummers vocal at extremely load levels and a very thin sound too. Couldn't hear anything else, talk about having to concentrate on not getting ahead of the drums.

I ended up moving away from my post and standing in front of the bass drum just so I could at least hear the drums. What I like about these gigs is the fact that you all just jump in the car with guitars and attire and go. Only Colin takes his AC30 as the ones provided by Butlins can be sometimes a bit hit or miss, the bass rigs are generally good, Ashdown or Ampeg rigs and usually a 4x10 stacked on top of 1x15 with an ABM 900 head to power it all.

Centre stage is best as you have a guy doing a side mix at the side of the stage, in Reds it is all done at the back of the room, when you point at your monitor all the sound lads turn away and pretend they haven't seen you.

All good fun though!


Lee

Get a good set of in-ear monitors and you won't look back. I used to use Sennheisers and some (gender bending) adaptors so I could feed them from a mic-line from the main desk. Problem solved, consistently usable sound regardless of position on stage (great if you run about like I used to).
I miss playing big stages but enjoy pubs, I like to see the whites of their eyes.

Nothing's what it was though and I wonder which direction I'll be headed in the future. Like I said before, adaptability is the answer.

MN

@grooverman....all nails firmly hit on their collective heads.

@MN,

On most occasions I don't have a problem hearing individual instruments/vocals etc but big stages like Butlins are a bit more challenging if you cannot hear the guy next to you.

Our drummer in the Kasuals has a cheap in-ear monitor set up which he likes, when it works, I may give it a go but presonally don't like things stuck in my ear for too long. I'm not one for wearing headphones to listen to music for that very same reason.

Lee :)

@Lee
It is a big stage, that's where the IEMs come in handy. You can have anything in the mix, same as regular monitors. I used to have my bass, my vocal, some hi-hat, some guitar and the guitarist's vocal, all about the same level; I'd feel the drums through the stage. I wouldn't bother with a cheap set up, it's your ears after all...but that's another blog.
I'm glad to read that Butlins weekends are still well attended. I have fond memories of the days when most my bands' diaries work was corporate, NAFFI or on holiday camps so I hope that your circuit doesn't suffer in the same way as the pub end of the business.
MN

Th e answer is -there is no definitive answer.
What is definite is that fees paid by average have lowered by around 25% from 10-15 yrs ago....
I have worked on a Pro and Semi-pro basis,and on the back of fee reductions have had to make the choice of calling it a day on the Pub circuit.
The problem being is that all Artists aren't suited to/ or wish to play Holiday camps/Corporate gigs...it's an all different ball-game.
On the subject of fees/what bands choose to play for...a couple of Saturdays ago i watched a Band in the Black Bull Preston(didnt catch their name).Great songs/good players but obviously hobbyists.
They get paid £150 in B.Bull.
Later same night i caught end of Midnight Johnny Gig at w-l-dale Con Club.
Here we had an obviously Pro band,both commitment-wise and musically....who were also picking up £150..and to be honest they would not fit the Hol Camp or Corporate cicuit....
Not sure what my point is-but just an observation..But at the end of the day it's the choice of a Band to were and and how much they play for....

@ Stormy Monday
I think it's a question of suitability and which pigeon-hole you find yourself in. If you're geared up for the Hol Camp or Corporate circuit it's definitely an option worth exploring.
MN