NWB - Community Blog

When I started gigging, the pub and club circuit in the North West was bouncing. It was possible to gig seven days a week, especially if you were prepared to travel. Pay - well £8 was the musicians Union recommended fee for a 4 piece band. We earned between £6 and £25 a gig but most were at the lower end. Mind you, a pint was less than 2 bob - ten pence - even in the clubs.

Check out www.manchesterbeat.com

for a real insight into a magical time to be in a band. You may come across a few bands, musicians you know from this site. Check out Rumble Fat Band for one, but there are more.

Don

Has the whole procedure of getting gigs changed? - Yes mate. Seems like there's more legwork now. And more onus on artists to post videos on YouTube and their own websites. I can remember getting gigs with a phone call like " Hiya mate, it's Mark here, bassist with (whoever). Got a new band, any chance of a gig?"

Have the punter's attitudes towards live music in pubs changed? - I believe so. I'll probably get shot down for this but as we're getting older, pub audiences seem to be getting younger. When I was 25, playing to 25 year old audiences was the norm, because we'd be playing whatever was current. I couldn't have imagined a 50 year old bloke doing Duran Duran stuff when I was!! Although there are still some young bands about doing Stereophonics, Arctic Monkeys, Killers, Kings of Leon, and other current stuff, there are still 50 year old musicians trying to play to young audience. And when people are pissed they automatically become the best singer in the world. Hence the success of Karaoke.

What were band fees say 15/20 years ago? - I personally was getting £30-£40 per gig, being in a 5 piece band. I actually remember playing the Army bases in Germany in 1986 and getting £1,000 per gig for the band. Less commission, that was around £160 each.

Were there lots of pub bands around, was it saturated even back then or were there enough venues to go round for everyone (or less bands around)? - Quite a good few venues to go around. Enough for everybody I'd say. In fact, in 1987, I was earning enough with the band being out 6 nights a week, I actually gave up the day job. I could have been out 8 nights a week, such was the demand, but even God had a day of rest.

I'd like to gain an insight into how trends have developed over time, and whether those that have been gigging for many years think the current circuit is in decline? - At the end of the 80's, and by the mid 90's, most of the band members I knew, had split down to duos or single artists, presumably because they thought they didn't need the band and there was more money in it. Unfortunately. you also got double the acts, so the work started dwindling even then. Then the noise police got involved, so real drummers started being replaced by drum machines. Then the government passed a bill that said if there were more than 2 in the band, the live music licence was about 10 times more (about £800 in those days if memory serves), so landlords would no longer accept a band. So more band splits, and more acts reforming from the ashes. And yes, I believe the current circuit is in decline. Pubs closing every day, beer prices being hiked up, not as much disposable income, therefore people stay at home, and the list goes on.

More importantly, where is it all going? - Down the pan unless something drastic happens soon. A pub needs bums on seats to survive. Simples. Wrong band, wrong night and the wrong audience and it all starts to go downhill very quickly indeed.

Just latching onto something you say there time. Beer at 2 bob a pint makes 10 pints to the pound and leaves £8 at 80 pints. Beer at £3 a pop now then 80 pints is £240. Is there a corrollary between the price of a pint and the bands fee :-)

Sorry Dean, not quite what you were after but it just sort of jumped out at me, swished around inside and then slopped all over the keyboard!

I started gigging in 1980, playing bass in a heavy rock band playing some covers but mostly original songs.

Has the whole procedure of getting gigs changed?

Depends, it hasn't changed for me; I still research gigs, take demos 'round, go and watch bands/artists. It's time consuming, costly, and requires some planning but that's what it takes. I have to try hard to resist the temptation to criticise bands who come on here asking venues to give them a chance, similarly, when venues expect hard working bands to work for expenses (it's not as if they sell their ale at cost...there, I've said it).
In a nutshell...get out of the rehearsal room and into the car.
Having said that, we have more tools at our disposal now for researching gigs and checking out acts (t'internet, youtube, FB, NWB etc) so it has changed but, because of market trends, it's probably harder work.

Have the punter's attitudes towards live music in pubs changed?

Only because of the karaoke (spit) mentality which misguides punters into thinking that anyone can sing (wrong) and any baboon can play an instrument (bullshit). I think the standard of bands and music has improved but the expectations are higher.

What were band fees say 15/20 years ago?

Like I said before, I started out in original bands so earned nowt for the first few years. I went pro in 1986 and was paid (for bass and b/v in a five peice band) £35-£40 per gig. Normal money for a five piece back then was £400 - £700 (minus 15% plus VAT commission) depending on location. The difference was, back then we often did five or six gigs a week and ten day runs back to back. Overseas contracts were also more plentiful and paid a little better.

Were there lots of pub bands around, was it saturated even back then or were there enough venues to go round for everyone (or less bands around)?

Possibly.

I'm glad you asked these questions, it's only as I look back that I can see how much has changed. Generally it was easier to be a pro muso, now it's almost impossible.

More importantly, where is it all going?

???

MN

I think that was probably the point I was trying to make - the fees are still pretty similar but there was a lot more work. Playing in a four piece band, you could play 5 nights and pick up £10 or more. A lot of similar aged guys were working full time for a lot less than that. A mate had a job as an apprentice engineer and was paid £4 a week.

If you were lucky, you had a WEM 100 watt PA with 2 4 x 10 speaker columns, a couple of AC 30s (wish I had one now!) and a small van to transport it. Some bands carried there gear on the bus and I knew one Gorton based group who carried it on a hand cart.

Gigs were easy to get. There were a lot of agencies as well as venues booking direct. Pubs, Working Men's Clubs, youth clubs, cabaret clubs, dance halls and colleges.

:-) Certainly got a bus to gigs many a time - combo in one hand, guitar case with some drum stands and my bass in the other.

Ah those were the days Don. People used to GO OUT in those days. A couple of clubs at the weekend (3 x 20 minute spots- woe betide you if you went over into bingo time) and the rest of the week in pubs. You could work most nights of the week and never leave Oldham.

The biggest thing thats changed is that people don`t go out anymore, Zillions of TV channels and the internet have resulted in most people stopping in at night. Hence clubs & pubs closing down at an alarming rate.(as we all know)

Having said that - there`s a whole lot of new young talent coming up from the music colleges,rockschools etc and they`re all wanting somewhere to play (and precious little prospect of a day job these days) so I don`t take the view that the music scene is in decline (which seems to be the default position of many NWBers,) .it`s just changing.

It`s still a matter of supply & demand. Lower demand and larger supply means cheaper acts. Bands working for what duos used to earn and so on. Good for punters but not so good if you want to make a living from it.

Who remembers The Lamb, Kings Arms Preston? The Nacky Chorley in the old days.
If you played those places you were considered established.
Yorkshire and the North East had a massive club circuit in the 70's and 80's (although I only started playing in bands in 1980), but had friends at the time who used to travel all over Yorkshire in a weekend playing WMC's, Con Clubs, Labour Clubs etc and made a mint.
Closing time was 10.30pm in many places so you were packed up and home often by midnight.
Happy Days..

Opening times have have made a big difference, mid week was 10.30 last orders, Friday and Sat were 11. You were always packed up and out by midnight, very few pubs had a late licence .

Its a long night now, maybe the extended hours have just watered things down, venues often don't fill up until we are into 2nd spot.

In the 80s to the very early 90s I was in originals bands. A couple of which got a respectable enough following, but the gigs were hard to get. The Tache in Blackpool, Kings Arms Preston were real exceptions to the norm as they put originals bands on at weekend. We used to get £40 for the Kings Arms. Can't recall if we got paid at the Tache or not. Gave up playing after that for a while and only got back into it because an old friend (and incidentally a guitar hero of mine) died and I was asked to fill in with his band at a memorial do.

Even now I recall the thriving music scene in Leyland/Preston/Blackpool back then.

Thinking about it, people used to get excited when they were going to see a band. You don't see that quite as much, even in the folks that do turn out. Unless it's just me seeing things differently...?

I still get excited when I go to see a band, whether in a pub or an arena. As for gigging, despite many thousands of gigs I'm still nervous before we start ( and even well into the first set sometimes)

Sad but true.

Don

~15 years ago we were getting £150 a gig as a starting band with no lights, tiny borrowed PA and quite a lot of ropey originals in our set. We saved up enough for our own PA in about a month!
Jon

.......Opening times did make a difference. Remember noon & nights in the clubs on Sundays? When the clubs would shut for a few hours in the afternoon. Can`t imagine it now.
Remember when New Years Eve felt like a really long night? It`s par for the course to be playing till 12.30 and later now.
Ee by `eck.

When Aye were a lad...... we slept in't road under a septic tank and paid for't pleasure.

Times have certainly changed - not just pubs but clubs are suffering too. All because people would rather sit in front of the old goggle box with cheap cans

Aye .....and working with t`strippers in the noon spot. I remember when strippers were women.

you try tellin the young uns....& c

You Rang.....
Nice to see someone spotted us on Manchesterbeat. Cheers Don.
To think that 3 of us are still playing together after all these years.
One of the biggest losses are the clubs that weren't licenced, (Oasis, Twisted Wheel etc.) and the Dance Halls that used to put a band on on a Saturday night, sell tickets and "roberts your whatsit".
Church Halls would be converted into a club for the evening.
The one thing that strikes me is that all these venues were "dry". They got absolutely packed and it was mainly teenagers enjoying themselves.
It would be almost untinkable now to play somewhere that wasn't licensed.

@4 Most Wanted

Just put this on another blog.
In 1968 we were averaging £17 10s a gig, (have a photocopy of our manager's ledger). That equates to £244.70 in today's money, so with an average of around £150-200 per pub gig, we are paid less.

Yeah, I remember the RFB from the 60s - a few more of you then and Stuart Charles on vocals. wasn't a soul fan but enjoyed yourselves and Phoenix City Smash. Hadge Waller (Hydra) is another - even older than me - who is on Manchesterbeat - see if you can find him lol

Nowadays if you played a youth club they would have booze from somewhere.

A lot of clubs were dry although some of the punters did find alternatives to get "High" especially in The Magic Village

Good times

Yeah we were an 8 piece then, ( and we still do the occasional gig with full brass and backing vocals).
Still in touch with Stuart Charles. He came to see us in a club in Stockport a little while back and we bump into each other now and then.
Also still good mates with Phil Gregory of Pheonix City Smash. Him and Andy, keyboards, put Simply Soul together. Andy has got Alzheimers unfortunately so is now having to quit.
Meet up with Roy, who used to manage us and Pheonix before we went to Kennedy St, quite a lot.
Happy Days.

10-15 years ago, in my old band the average was £250-£300, but we set our stall out for that amount, so we did venues that would pay that. a pint was around £1.75.

We used to play from Bolton to Preston (probably a 20 mile stretch) regularly and named it the 126 route (the 126 bus used to pass through most gig venues). There was at least 3-4 in Bolton town itself, 3-4 in Horwich, 2 in Adlington, 3-4 in Chorley, 2 in Bamber Bridge and thats before you even got to Preston.

If you werent gigging you and your mates could get on the 126 bus and choose from any of the pubs on the route and be guaranteed a good band in any. You didnt need to check if there was a band on that night. You knew there would be.


Now theres perhaps 1 or 2 pub still on the route that has bands on, and thats only now and again.

The scene as it was in this particular area is dead. Its no need to be - most these venues were thriving businesses.

I cant speak for every area, but trust me, around this way, its nothing, nothing like it was. Nothing at all.


You did used to get excited about having a beer and watching a band and used to love it. Now thats been taken away.

At the risk of loosing where I'm up too seeing as time flies buy these days. When I first ever got on a stage was back in 1980, according to my calculator. In a very short space and I mean from Trafford bar to say Stretford Precinct. There was maybe twelve to fifteen pubs putting on bands and artists. Some of these being. The Hope inn, The Trafford, The Gorse Hotel, Stretford Trades and Labour, The Melvile, Mouline Rogue,The Bass Drum. A lot of them have gone, and all of them no longer put bands on.

A hell of a lot of those also went the route of, either turning to a semi pub come food establishment, DJ nights, Karaoke nights, sports bar style. Blah blah blah. The list goes on and not nessessarilly in any particular order, but most tried several different things before giving up and waiting for the doors to close for good.

I used to gig three night a week, every week if possible, cheapest I ever did was £60 in Leeds, I felt really ripped off, but I just used to like to gig so that's what we did. Always double pay at Christmas and treble for new year,

Early days was 100% 1950s Rock 'n' Roll, very receptive audiences, Pubs and clubs, as many gig as you could muster. Lots of foot work. later on as a cabaret band we did the foot work and got an agent, so again as many gigs as you wanted, but the agent was at the piss poor end of the market so the gigs tended to be poorly paid and he had to have his cut too.

Cutting to the story short, last band was about 15 years ago, again we did all the leg work we plaid 90% pubs anywhere we could get too. Probably every weekend and mostly twice per weekend. Never seemed to think much about the money to be honest. Some weekends I'd have an extra £100 in my pocket some I wouldn't. Beer was always free too, not sure about now.

If I had to do it again now, I know it would be a struggle. I read a lot on here and I see what goes on. I see Land Lords Blaming lazy bands for playing the same old shit, yadda yadda yadda. I also see people trying it on by offering peanuts too. This may work for Billy Bollocks who couldn't care less 'cos he's got his acoustic and postman's bike and so has no expenses, but some bands may have thousand invested plus the transport. I bet if some of the real great bands on here totted up they'd get no change from 10k. Don't anyone tell me that's a band that should play for peanuts. I'd smash my guitars against the wall before I let someone take the piss. Even a bass player with his instrument and amp may have shelled out 3k same for the Guitarist more for the PA, God knows how much drums are but if they need miking up and a mini mixer and shit loads of cables.

LOL... I think I'm ranting and I don't even play any more. I'm not even sure if I said anything that the blog wanted. LMBFAO. Oh well.... feck it. I'll post it up all the same.

Good luck guys, don't let them cheapskate fuckwits take you for a ride.

Its good to read that all the ones gigging for years are telling it as it is/was.

Plenty of venues and better money. Maybe this blog will make people see the drastic decline. Anyway....

That was another thing that used to happen due to the 10.30-11pm closing time at pubs - youd finish your last song and immediately have to pack up as everyone was getting asked to leave in a hurry. There was hardly anytime for a drink after the gig, and certainly no relaxing and mixing with the crowd!

There would be no where to get a drink after unless youre town had a nightclub (and that was £5+ to get in, and youd be lucky if the pizza shops were still open by the time youd packed up if the town didnt have a nightclub!

My god doesn't time fly, been doing this thing for over 30 years on and off (ore on than off though) and as mentioned earlier in this Blog the music scene in Preston used to be thriving, The Lamb, The Kings Arms, The Joiners in Chorley, The Thatched House, Stockport were some of best places to play, I seem to remember the money being more or less what we get paid thesedays. They were great days then cause you always had a full venue, the beer was shit load cheaper then as well.