NWB - Community Blog

It doesn't matter either way. If you feel like you need to use them, do it. If I could sight read for guitar and needed crib sheets I'd use one.

do u have an ipad there is a mic attachment ? lol ..im sure there is an app for word prompting ive seen other people use them and its not as obvious...
But hey , if u need words in front of u then so be it ?

just read your blog and i cant remember a flippin thing its about already.

you wana use a music stand you go ahead and use a music stand

all that matters is that the music and vocals you are creating are shit hot and nobody will give a dam.

and thats the rub.

pete.

Seriously? You got actual stick for it? I'd have laughed in their faces. Hell, make a feature of it. Wrap it in tinsel and make it your stage gimmick.

I use a stand next to my kit with my dots on but I try desperately not to stare at it all night and have made a massive effort to detach from it for as many songs as possible despite actual and quite debilitating memory problems.

But there's ways and means of using them and I think you can try to be discrete about them in their positioning etc. For example I think one mounted part way up your mic stand at about waist height is far less intrusive than a separate stand occupying the stage alongside you. I keep mine low and hide it behind amps so far as is possible.

I'll never criticise anyone for using prompts but I do accept that some will deem them unprofessional looking and that's their prerogative. I can understand even that they wouldn't want to be in a band if there are music stands cluttering stage front for that very reason.

The problem with dots/lyrics being so accessible to you is that they will become a crutch. I think a large part of it is often lack of confidence. If you believe you will forget the words you probably will. The trick is to have them there but to determinedly not refer to them as much as possible and steadily dispense with the lyrics for the songs that you've got down. If they're not there you just have to go for it, like taking the stabilisers off your bike. It's worked for me because notwithstanding the issues I suffer from you've got to put some faith in the fact that anything, if done repetitively enough, will eventually be committed to memory, whether on a conscious or subconscious level - you've got to trust yourself (and be confident in your relationship with your bandmates that they won't give you unnecessary grief if you go for it and do suffer some hiccups along the way) and just have at it.

hell i have seen guns and roses vidio,s that acidentaly got the on stage monitor
in shot srolling the words for axel nose,

erm , not that i make a habit of watching g n r

pete getting drunker by the minuit, er, minute

get me another whiskey slave.

Pete, you just beat me to that reference. Autocue. Music Stand for the famous.

So: Pro musicians use stands. Pop/Rock "stars" use autocue. Not seeing a reason for NOT using one here.....?

Hell, I might get one tomorrow :oD

As I said in the previous blog I'm not a fan...but I do accept that there are times a stand is necessary... as long as you are gigging and it's what you enjoy doing why should you give a toss about mine or anyone else's opinion??Just rock till ya drop, I know I will :-)

@JOHNNY MEERKAT

Ex-frigging-actly.

yeah ,,,, read em and sing.

I've just watched the video on your website, and if I'm being honest it was somewhat like watching a rehearsal - in large part because your attention is focussed almost wholly on your music stand, and then it becomes problematic as it's forming a barrier between you and your ability to engage with your audience. I noticed too that the bassist also has a freestanding music stand right at the front of the stage (and as you rightly say the keys player has his dots there so is somewhat hypocritical for challenging anyone else over their use of them).

As I said, if you need a stand use it if it means it keeps you out there gigging and enjoying yourselves, but give some thought to what it says to your audience and how it affects your performance and try to work some compromises in. For example could the bassists stand be more hidden off to the side, perhaps behind a PA speaker and referred to as and when needed (I'm not sure the extent to which he needs it as he certainly didn't appear to be referring to it in the video you've uploaded).

Tex off here uses a mic stand mounted music stand at about waist height and it's barely noticeable, and you can work it into your performance so it's no so obvious you're looking at it (the audience won't know if your looking at your fretboard, your pedals, or your lyrics.

Watch your own video back and be honest with yourselves as to how detached you look and think about using the stand as a tool rather than letting it dominate you.

Sorry, it sounds a bit preachy but I honestly think you can have the best of both worlds with a bit of thought and planning.

a professional is prepared, sometimes that's prompt sheets, most folk use a set list, i always use cue sheets for mixing unless it's a really simple night. when i print set lists for a certain band i work with i give one member a set list that is large type for his eyesight. talk to those musicians that cross over into musical theatre work and they never do it from memory, always from sheets - whether it's failing memory, eyesight, a complex show there are many reasons for choosing to use them. i always used to use them for rehearsals as a musician until i had the songs memorised.i think it's more unprofessional to go to a gig without being prepared - i.e. no prompt sheets and not knowing the stuff!
oh and a keyboard player i work with always has his chords infront of him on a laptop - the audience maybe think it's a midi/pc hook up thingamy but really its just prompt sheets.

i saw photos of a friend in a band recently and they all had old style big band music stands so it became part of the image so that was cool. i think if you were playing certain sorts of music that has a visual content (hard rock?) it may not be in keeping with the image but rest assured some of the big rock bands do this - their cue sheets are on a screen built into their wedge monitors.
I think he main thing is not to let the cue sheets interupt the flow of the show or the visuals of the show - i have done dep gigs as a musician where my music stand has been at the side of the stage and a new song chords taped to the rear of the PA cabs next to the set list.

How about sticking to a "core" of say 10 or 12 songs each gig for a certain period of time then hopefully you wouldn't need to refer to lyric sheets for them and pick and choose from the extensive set list for the rest of the set - you can legitimately joke to the audience then that as you haven't played it for donkeys you'd better get your book of words ready for any senior moments you may have. Then every so often either change your core set completely (with sufficient rehearsal time beforehand to nail the lyrics of the incoming songs) or replace a proportion of it.

We all take the piss out of our singer for all manner of things but I have maximum respect for him to able to remember lyrics and play guitar simultaneously. I keep meaning to try doing backing vocals but can't even do that and play. Work to your strengths, accept and work around your weaknesses without them become issues (either for yourself or anyone else) and above all else make sure you're surrounded by people who respect and appreciate the scale of the undertaking you more than anyone else in the band has before them and have a rollicking good time in each other's company making music.

To be blunt about this a guy put a really generous blog up about wanting to help bands because his condition limits him this week.

If a *self censored* individual actually gets in your grid about using a stand to put things on, that individual needs a perspective check.

You could get him a gig with the Liverpool Phil, just for instance. He could watch the baton for the changes. It's easy enough......

Michael stipe has never had any jip for it & he has one at the side of his mike stand all the time ,i"ve seen "new order" using a auto cue & john lydon used a stand on the last PIL tour ...so don"t worry .

I ain't ever had the best of memories but I got totally wiped out by a 16.5 ton excavator bucket in full slew around 5 years ago n had to have me nut stapled back together n since then..............................................wtf was I on about ?

oh yea, if I can't have me stand I'd have to call it a day !!!!
sure Skips n Al can confirm just how fooked my memory is, pmsl

I can't read music so dots wouldn't do me any good but when we're road testing new songs I ill often need to have the lyrics handy. I just try and keep the music stand as out of the way as possible, usually off to the side under the speaker or something.

I don't think its particularly unprofessional as long as you don't spend all night staring at it. At the end of the day just do what you gotta do - as long as it sounds good its all gravy :)

I always always use a stand- I have about 200 songs to chose from in there- I never do the same set I always try to do requests and I never have aany complaints- most weekends Im gigging three nights and theres never a complaint about the stands- :-)

When I do afternoon slots and sometimes at the wiganer I take a bag of music books and the punters get up for a bit of Guitareoke- try my best :-)

nowt wrong with music stands but do you still carry the cuddling blanket on stage!!

I don't go anywhere without my Nu-Nu *sucks thumb ferociously*.

If you play in a live band...I think it's a disgrace...you should rehearse more...seeing music/lyrics on a music stand at the front of the stage smacks of under-rehearsed amateurs and/or nervous insecurity...if you're looking at a lyric sheet then you're not performing to the audience...I'd feel cheated if I was paying you...just my humble opinion of course...

Ha nonsense- every pro-musician I have worked with use stands- When I supported Stereophonics I had the option of using their floor screen for lyrics- Kelly Jones had a music stand at the Millenium Concert and he only did three of his own songs- -

I read music of them sometimes meaning there isn't many songs I cant play-

When I play in the band I dont use a stand- usually have a set of about 50 songs to chose from but stuff like rock, punk and blues with three chords and nothing complicated so thats easy peasy without a stand

agree with LGIT...if you dont know the words, how can you possibly sing it with any kind of feeling?
Stands and lyrics are ok if you're just doing a recital. How would you feel if you went to watch a play or film and the actors held scripts in their hands?

ooohhhh...is that a 'bite' !!!???

I can understand the argument .. When does paid pro-performing stop and karaoke start ??

We recently overhauled the set list and until the words are second nature I did have some prompts taped to my monitor. To be honest I hated myself for it as I like to have everything perfect and in my eyes (MHO only) I was under rehearsed if I didn't have all the words in my head and the playing under my hands.

Having said that I have recently seen the Halle orchestra. Bunch of bastards played covers all night, everything they did was written in front of them to cheat from. They didn't play anything more up to date than say 100 years ago, and never did sex on fire or wishing well (see what I did there).

To be honest it's not for me but that says more about me than anything else. If more pro-musicians than us use them WTF.

its true! If you saw an actor reading from a script you'd be well pissed off he hadn't learned his lines..

You must conform to Rock 'n' Roll! PMSL.

There's a reason these were invented......

Your Youtube vid is really good guys, you're all good players & tight as a band. But in my opinion your music stands are a barrier between you & your audience - I'm a firm believer that people are just as interested in what they're 'seeing' at a live gig as much as what they're 'hearing'. With your ability to crank out tunes as polished as that, I'd be wanting to release as much rock n roll in me as I could. That's coming from a frustrated drummer who has to sit down all gig haha!

Dean

if i get a number that won't stick i just bang the chords down on a sheet of A4 and leave it taped to the back of the keyboard/singers head , i have the drummers crib sheet taped to my back the singer has an auto cue with the guitarists crib sheet taped to her back we just stand like a caterpillar one behind the other its great for narrow stage set ups , but a problem in small venues as the band setup is halfway to the bog ! ;-)
i prefer not to use crib sheets ,but sometimes i have to if we've thrown something together last minute and i've not had time to get it 100% to memory or i'm depping, i just discretely spread em on the floor by my feet, sheet of A4 with big felt pen letters , better to have a reminder than cock up , and if you are in your 20's you have the luxury of not having 'senior moments' , if you have not experienced a senior moment let me share the fun with you , the number you have played gazillions of times over 30 years suddenly disappears from the memory banks without warning , if you are lucky it reappears just before the end of the drummers count in, if not , smile and pretend something serious has happened to your amp ;-)
i dont see it being that much of a problem unless as tubthumper says it stands as a barrier between you and the audience, i've played in loads of bands where horn sections use the dots and the one that didnt use dots kicked the ass of the rest for feel. if the shit fits wear it

What was invented?

There's a pic there. It's an auto-cue wedge monitor. It's what many professionals use on stage.

I need stands usually too pissed to remuber the worms

so its just a fancy karaoke machine. If professionals cant be bothered to learn the words to their own songs then to me (at least) it shows they ain't that bothered about the music. Probably have em in case they get distracted whilst they're counting audience numbers to work out their pay cheques.

I am a massive Dylan fan (going way back) but since he's started using one (one of them that look like clear glass) I just can't be bothered going to shows anymore.I'm not paying good money just to be in his presence. If I wanna hear karaoke, strict time keeping etc I'll go to a pub (not that I do)

Truly great artists managed before these things came along...going back to music hall days.

In fact...from their own ad material
"Hidden in a wedge style audio floor monitor type case, the Stageprompter is virtualy undetectable by the audience."

Why would a user want it to be 'hidden' and be 'virtually undetectable'?
Answer ...so they can't be said to be cheating (I assume!)

I have the best part of 50 songs to remember and I am shit, I SAY SHIT at memorizing lyrics.... I can practice and practice and it can take me ages to get the lyrics to stay in my head... I cant tell you how many times I have had to convince the members of the band I am in that I have worked my ass off.... by gig day it has to be right and I tend to get it locked ready for a deadline (as I tend to say).

I purchased a note pad - and I mean a pad and pen -- i simply write the lyrics down over and over again, so each song will be written down on my note pad, lets say 20-30 times. Only then does it start to sink in.. but it works for me and understanding the story of a song prompts me to the correct verse... dont get me wrong we all make mistakes but the key is to play around or over those mistakes it makes for a good performer to at least beable to do that... If you do end up forgetting .. do what I do and simply say whoops and fuxx it and carry on.. were human not robots

@ Bad Horsie mick .... isnt this ironic really given me kicking my own arse last night for forgetting my cheat book!!

Seriously guys...... I have been playing for 30 years and i have a book that goes everywhere with me with all manner of basslines and cheat sheets stuck in it.......I dont wanna be glib about it but generally when i get to gig time i can do the gigs without it but these days it does take quite a number of rehearsals before i dont consult the "BOOK"....

If i aint 100% sure of a song i will have a sheet of paper discreetly placed on stage with some rough arsed shorthand on it as either an aide memoir/ comfort blanket......

Now being the complete hypocritical bastard that i am, i do try to hide it from the audience to a certain degree.

But being completely honest ...would i care if i saw someone playing and they had a music stand in front of em ??? No wouldnt bother me a bit...........

Our keyboard player uses dots and ive never been worried he will forget a tune.....


As has been commented above ... life is so stressful, and work is so stressful that i sometimes cant remember which house i live at so if some chord sequences have dripped out of my ear during the day a bit of help aint the end of the world surely....

I would also state that if you are in a mega big band like guns n roses and you actually wrote the fucking music and lyrics, and you have rehearsed for weeks on end to get your live production right. Then and only then should you be able to perform the music from back to front in your sleep without needing your own penmanship beamed up into your fucking brain from a fake monitor.

Axl Rose was one of the first to use the floor prompt monitors- he had them on the stage for Freddie Mercury tribute.... its where I first saw them... not a big deal- John lennon had lyrics ontop of his guitar

Well they must be putting something in the water these days...maybe its fluoride thats eroding people's ability to memorise.....anyway, if prompts are thought to be OK...why hide em?

And no-one has replied to my play analogy yet...would you watch a Hamlet or something if the cast held scripts?

AND if Axl Rose used a prompt for a couple of songs on a Freddie Mercury tribute concert (words which any fan would probably know by heart!) then its a case of 'Yeh Freddie Mercury's work has been dear to my heart...unfortunately I dont know any of his songs, just the melodies'...not much of a tribute then if he can't be bothered to learn em!

I rest my case m'lud

"Why would a user want it to be 'hidden' and be 'virtually undetectable'?
Answer ...so they can't be said to be cheating (I assume!)"

It's a tool of the trade and is an accepted one. There is no "cheating" involved. Perhaps it simply looks better designed to blend in with the stage monitors.

I really don't understand this "it's cheating" train of thought at all. If it helps someone perform, it's a plus. It can't anything OTHER than a plus.

"And no-one has replied to my play analogy yet...would you watch a Hamlet or something if the cast held scripts?"

Ever heard of a prompter? EVERY show has one. Literally a human music stand.

You may as well say an actor doesnt need to learn his lines then...just have an in ear monitor with some telling him what to say and when to say it.

Is anyone saying here that they have a music stand onstage and constantly look at it? Not that I've seen.

Apart from classical or session players nobody does that. The prompter is there in case an actor forgets his words. The principle is the same. Except perhaps the "offending" musician doesn't stop the song mid flow and say "Prompt" lol.

I do have the odd cheat sheet on the floor until the words are in my head but I am embarrassed by it. They are not on view to the public. This is my personal thing....can you imagine going to watch AC/DC and seeing Brian Johnson stood behind a music stand?


Having said that, I don't really hold it against any pub band that plays for fun. It's just something that I wouldn't want to do...erm...or be seen doing.

Guns and roses did their own songs and Live and Let Die there and they use them still to this day-

I never do the same set- ever - I somettime get asked to do a particular song for a one off gig- so I print off the music and listen to it in the car on the way to the gig-

I did a gig the other week basically playing background and lounge in a bar at a corporate event- me a guitar, amp a music stand and my books- I played for around six hours and did not repeat a song- I used a stand- got 9 private gigs as a result ( including a couple of footballers for summer) and I enjoyed it- Not many folks can do six hours withou repeating- I reckon I did over 100 songs easy- but I didnt do a professional job or do it properly coz I used a stand :-) proper funny :-) Might start playing the same blues lick over and over and over agian and ditch the stands :-) whey hey !

"Might start playing the same blues lick over and over and over agian and ditch the stands :-) whey hey !"

lol!

oops touch paper light stand back :-)

Anyone ever written the lyrics on the inside of the hand lol ... come on who's got the guts to own up lmao ...

Playing ' background and lounge' is totally different from a rock gig ...you may as well claim to have every song in the world in your repertoire...kinda human jukebox. Take a laptop and you have access to any lyric/music ever written. Play for 24 hours and do a 1000 different songs if you have the stamina

Most rock bands have a max of 20 songs per gig...if a singer can't do Ace of Spades or Whole Lotta Rosie or S O F without a crib sheet then clearly they dont know the song (bloody hell, I know the words to them and I've never done em in my life....

Rock music shouldnt be about simply performing songs...its about passion, and you can't claim to have passion for a song.if you dont know the words... its impossible!!!! surely thats obvious?

Like Mr Cottonhouse said do you really wanna see Brian Johnson in front of a music stand?

As far as reference to blues goes, I shall put that down to ignorance :) (or baiting)..however I'd much rather see a performance like this than one where a singer is blissfully singing away to words from a crib sheet

20 songs per gig? Where have you been? We play close on 40 every time. We don't use stands or crib sheets, but if we needed to we would.

it was baiting and I apologise- wel done for not biting :-)

But 20 songs! I am in a band too- we work off at least a 40 song set- but not usually a stand for those gigs-

no wonder you dont have stands if you only do 20 songs- acoustic gigs I usually do at least 40 - at wiganer tonight- granted I will be half cut and by 12.30 possibly not singing anymore but shouting or mumbling- but Ill go on about 9 and play through :-) no genres no type from Abba to ZZtop both included both played

# Posted by NIGHT TRAIN - 03/02/2012,

"Like Mr Cottonhouse said do you really wanna see Brian Johnson in front of a music stand?"

No. To be honest, I'd rather see him in front of a runaway train, or at least in front of a jury for crimes against music.



# Posted by Andy Mack - 03/02/2012
"oops touch paper light stand back :-)"

Ditto. Haha!!!

I'm talking the usual start 9.30 finish at 12 gig...thats 150 mins...say 4 mins a song (minimum) with introduction and thats160 mins!... permanent playing...hahaha..and then some!
Depends how long songs are I guess...no Yes songs then?

@ 4most

Now now!! :)

Alec - are there many lyrics in your sets? I seem to remember it being 80% guitar and harmonica solos and 5% listening to a train coming down a very long track!

;)

Stevie wonder never used one....

Jez, you are a bad bad man.

doesn't matter - he'll never read it!

You're going to that special hell reserved for people who cough throughout films at the cinema and leave their trolleys skewed right across the aisles in supermarkets.

As Ian Gillan sang - No Laughing In Heaven!

:0)

3 bands, 149 different songs, 0 music stands with lyrics and crib sheets lol. I am such a sad bastard

"# Posted by Anthem - 03/02/2012, 17:19 (GMT)
3 bands, 149 different songs, 0 music stands with lyrics and crib sheets lol. I am such a sad bastard"

Yeah, but we all know about your photographic memory.

AND you use one at rehearsal :oP

I wouldn’t knock anyone for using music stands if they genuinely can’t remember lyrics, but I’m starting to see them everywhere. Maybe I’m being judgemental but there’s a difference between “can’t remember words” and “can’t be arsed to learn songs”. Of course you shouldn’t ‘pack it in if you cant remember every number like i did back in 1974’ (you old trooper), but I’ve been in bands whose singers couldn’t be arsed to learn the songs and it and it really pisses me off, especially when they occupy my, barely adequate, piece of space with their music stand and it looks like it’s mine!
I wouldn’t use lyric sheets because my eyesight is so bad, even with specs, that I wouldn’t be able to read them anyway so I have to learn the lyrics. I have a set list on the floor with about 70 songs on it, just for ideas.
Re; “I may have a genuine problem with early form of Alzheimer’s” I hope you haven’t…I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

MN

@ Nicola

Dont forget I do solo stuff too :D..everything from trad folk to blues to comedy to modern folk to rock...and have probably done more gigs like that (or maybe 50/50 these days). The hardest one I had trouble learning was 'Green Fields of France', but I made the effort cos I was determined not to use a crib sheet.
I used to do loads of Dylan too at one point (including his long ones ie Visions of Joanna, Desolation Row LARS etc) but wouldnt ever dream of doing it from a song book...learned an interpretation of a song and then if I did forget the words I could 'fudge it' cos I knew roughly what it was about....I used to assign little stories in my head..so if I was singing Idiot Wind or something, I had my own story behind the words

I worked it out once and when I was doing 5 or 6 solo's a week I had a repertoire of 300 and odd songs (some quite complex lyrically..all of em memorised...ok sometimes I made lines up...as Rick will testify with my Woodstock thing....if you are into a song its no big deal....maybe just technique. I can still remember songs I aint done for 20 years

Anyway gig time in Darwen...will probably forget my words now...hahahaha!

the best advice I can give is find a band who wants to do stuff you like a lot, much easier to remember something you enjoy doing really. And Mick...........ssshhhhh, you only have to learn the really easy ...er...intricate...8000 notes per second solos......I'll shut up now

If you stand behind your bass player you could pin all ya words on his back and no one will know!!

meant to reply earlier but i forgot my log in details...now I cant rember what I was going to say ! ;0P

Alzheimer’s disease is the most common cause of dementia, followed by vascular dementia, dementia with Lewy bodies and frontotemporal dementia. It is possible to have more than one of these diseases that cause dementia at the same time. You might hear this called ‘mixed dementia’.

I went on a march not long ago, to promote the awareness of the above. We chanted ........

"What do we want, we don't know, When do we want it.... What?

Now that's funny but the disease is deffo NOT !!!!!!

Rick.

What are you lot like lol! ask a question lol!

Ex Keyboard player with Rollercoaster

Just to set the record straight.

I did not leave the band soley because of the music stands, yes I think they look awful but there are other reasons why I left which I will not say on here.

The reason I used music at this gig is because this was actually my first ever gig with the band and I had them just in case, each song had different keyboard instruments I had to remember (x2) and every single song was transposed to a different key, the band had been doing these songs for years but still literally read the music.

Each to their own and reading all the comments I would say opinion is equally divided. I have my own standards like everyone else does.

However, like I said though, this is not the reason I left the band.

I think that both playing and singing familiar songs can become sort of automatic - play and sing without having to think about it.

New songs or less familiar ones cause the problem. As Homer Simpson says, "Every time I learn something new, something old just drops out" So, much listening in car, much writing down of lyrics and plenty practice. I've not used stands yet, but, if it improves the performance, can't see the problem. try and keep them as discreet as possible and use as an aid - not a neccessity.

As for not having passion if you don't know the words, hmmmm not all passion comes with lyrics.

I have my coat

Don ;)

I guess we are all in the same game, whether we use stands or not. I dont because I like to look em in the eye and sing. I do think that stands do form a barrier between the band and audience but if you got to use em then its better than not going out and gigging.

Ex Ex Keyboard player

I use a music stand too
funny though cos they made my keyboard with one that clips into it!!
So if it's there why not take advantage of it!
Besides, It saves me learning the words!!
Or the music!!
LOL!!!!

Hiya guys. Take a look at my mic stand in this pic.