NWB - Community Blog

I download the odd single track when I need to get it to learn, or if I fancy a listen before buying an album. All my music purchases recently have been mp3 album downloads from amazon - absolutely brilliant - can be played anywhere (I never bought into the i-pod crap, just got an i-river mp3 player which acts like a hard drive when plugged into computer so just drag and drop any music file onto it).
Willow

I have downloaded some stuff. Mainly stuff I had on tape or vinyl that isn't available anymore, but some other stuff too.

I put a lot on my Ipod but don't use Itunes for downloading at ALL . I keep my music in a separate folder in MP3 format so Itunes can't get a grip of it and rebadge it for its own use. I hate that about the Ipod. Regular MP3 all the way. And that's only because vinyl isn't readily available any more.

yeah same here, have downloaded an odd tune to learn but really if I like the album I'll buy it. I use an i-pod for my backing tracks but I make sure I have copies of my backing on cd should anything go wrong it aint easy transferring from i-pod back to pc.
Have just got one of those turntables to transfer all my vinyl to cd...long road ahead methinks....

well rob as most people on here know im not the most computer literate person in the world so it may not surprise you to find out that the whole download thing has pretty much passed me by. but to be honest i do still like buying an actual cd and having a cd/record collection. you cant beat it.

exceeded my download limit again this month....say no more :-D

I've done a few illegal downloads, mainly stuff I aint heard...turned me on to quite a few bands who I'd never heard of (Drive By Truckers is big example) but who I'd go and see in concert at the drop of a hat, so I guess it promotes 'live; music
Recording companies are becoming dinosaurs these days...and with the amount of drivel they push on people these days, I say good riddance.
I really wouldn't mind if they all went bust...a la Woolworth's. Virtually all the music ever put out is out there if you want it...music made over (say)a year ago should be put in public domain...just cos you spent 10 minutes writing a song on a beer mat, and a day recording it doesn't mean you should be able to 'retire' on it...no matter how catchy it may be.
Anybody can make a good sounding recording these days just on a laptop...all record companies seem to do is just run advertising campaigns.
If bands want fans...they should get out more and do a bit more 'live' work on a local level rather than having their record company 'hype them and release over priced cd's every few years.
I could go on about this forever...but I won't LOL
PS I do suggest (for purposes of debate on here) that the end of major record companies and their products would be a massive boost in the long run for everybody playing music at a local level..
discuss ..in less than 500 words
LOL

And...and...and...with the advent of Spotify, I suggest that record companies are now officially defunct and that actual cd's are about to join 78's...nice to own, but you dont really wanna play em anymore do you?

To be honest if I found out somebody was downloading my officially released stuff like the new single with out my permission for free - I would be mega pissed off and sue the buggers.

For as long as the technology to download files and burn off a CD for free is available there simply isn't a way to stop it.

Posted by The ICE Band - 25/09/2009, 11:08 (GMT)

To be honest if I found out somebody was downloading my officially released stuff like the new single with out my permission for free - I would be mega pissed off and sue the buggers


If I found out anybody was downloading my stuff I'd be flattered!...then maybe if they played it a bit they'd be tempted to see me or the band live, and then maybe buy an official cd or whatever.
If I had the choice between either selling 1000 cd's or having 1000 true fans who came to gigs, I'd choose the latter...so there! LOL

@ The ice band : who are you going to sue?
All you will do is raise your head above the parapit, like Metallica's disastrous campaign against napster and cause more harm to your name than good.
What would you prefer : to sell a few copies of your album and make a bit of money?
Or have thousands download your album and you gain a good fanbase that will make more money through gigs and merchandise?

Lets face it, the only people who make money through album sales are record companies. The only artists that moan about the illegal downloads are the ones who have been given a gigantic advance and have to sell the albums to pay it back to the record company.

I'll happily pay a small fortune to go and watch a band live cos I know the band will get a majority of the profit after the costs have been deducted, whereas I don't feel the least bit guilty about about downloading the album, because in most cases, the albums are pretty naff anyway and full of fillers.

Just my opinion

hey, Scott..we both just said the same thing at the same time...spooky!

yep lol
great minds think alike lol

# Posted by Scott - Metalleeka - 25/09/2009, 11:32 (GMT)

"Lets face it, the only people who make money through album sales are record companies. The only artists that moan about the illegal downloads are the ones who have been given a gigantic advance and have to sell the albums to pay it back to the record company."

-------------------

Lily Allen

I think it's completely morally wrong to download music for free when you can easily buy it. It's quite rare that a CD costs more than a tenner, you can pick up many albums in shops like Fopp (a HMV subsidary as it happens) for as little as £3. That less than it'd cost me to get to shops in Manchester on the bus from my house!

I think it's easy to blame the record companies and long for their demise, but what is the alternative? You've got to realise that the big stars who "made it" through MySpace seem to have achieved their success rather dubiously. When the music industry works, it can benefit artists greatly and give them the freedom to achieve what they want to achieve whilst the industry does the business side. Of course it's not perfect but there is no real alternative. I'm all for live music and love playing live myself and watching gigs, but it's too simplistic to say that everyone should just earn their money from playing live and nothing else. There are musicians who either choose not to play live or create music that doesn't work particularly well live. Under that system, Brian Wilson wouldn't have made a penny out of his music from about 1967-2004 as he was too ill to perform. Is that fair? Or what about how that idea would affect the income of families of musicians who have died?

Gigging can be perfectly fine as a means of income for many bands if they have got a following and you've "made it" so to speak but if they are struggling to get from that stage where you're a successful local band to one popular around the country, I don't see how you can do it effectively without a label or promo company of some kind. The other downside of course is that now bands don't make any music out of album sales they've had to resort to shoving the prices of tickets up more and more. Now I can't afford to see all the bands I'd like to see.

I also think legal downloaded music needs to improve in quality greatly before I'd consider it worthwhile. MP3/MP4/WMA just doesn't cut it. We may as well throw our hi-fi equipment away and all buy an Alba. I find it bitterly ironic that in an age where the television/film industry is constantly striving to provide us with the best picture quality ever, with quantum leaps in technology every few years, we've actually taken huge step backs with our music technolgy in the last ten years. Hands up on here who owns a HD TV? Hands up who has even heard a Super Audio CD never mind knows what it was? Finally, hands up who prefers listening to music to watching Corrie in 1080p?

The step-back isn't just with heavily compressed downloaded/encoded music but how music is produced these days. Music is normalised to the point of lunacy and all dynamics are forced out in the mastering stage. Great for listening to music on the bus on cheap iPod headphones, not so great through a good set of speakers. A good test for this is to compare the vinyl original master of Dark Side of the Moon to the modern one (either on CD or Vinyl). If you can do it, tell me the original doesn't sound better. Sure it'll be a bit cracklier and less sparkly but the new version has absolutely no dynamics and sounds bland as sin. But at least you don't have to worry about it being too quiet on the good old MP3 player.

I do agree with Night Train's sentiment that the CD is dead, well I'd go as far as saying the album is dead. I've thought for a while that at best an album is a promotional tool for a tour where the money will be made back for the production costs of the album. It's really sad. I really miss the days where you were excited about an album being released, getting that slab of vinyl onto the platter and having a good read of the sleeve notes and a look at the cover whilst the tunes kick in. Music just seems valueless these days.

agreed the compressed music is pretty lame that's why you should get EAC or FLAC lossless formats are much better

quote..."Under that system, Brian Wilson wouldn't have made a penny out of his music from about 1967-2004 as he was too ill to perform. Is that fair? Or what about how that idea would affect the income of families of musicians who have died"

Musicians aint that different from any other workers...if my dad had died when I was young, I wouldn't expect to get royalties from his work to keep me in luxury all my life.
I've got some builders in doing a kitchen extension at the moment...working a lot harder than most musicians. Once its finished I dont expect to pay em a royalty every time I do the washing up.LOL
(or if I have a visitor wants to use my bog, they can't cos they aint paid for it LOL

Nah, lets get back to how the early days of recording where you get paid a set fee for doing a day's recording...if you get fees for radio play or whatever, then fair enough. There's no point in charging the public for the 'product' though when modern technology makes the 'product' valueless.

I'll put an even harder question to you though...what would you rather have...a million quid from a chart cd...or a million fans worldwide who'd come and watch you 'live'. I'd choose the latter...if people choose the former, then you're really better off doing the Lottery...you got more chance

Agree about sound quality though, but I'm sure this will be sorted in a few years. Most people are happy to listen through shit systems though...I'd sooner listen to blues records on a crappy jukebox than a state of the art hifi anyway LOL

Ah well, this has passed the morning nicely LOL...gotta do some work now LOL

PS I think its important to distinguish between pro musicians and pro recording artists...the latter being a defuct bunch, to the advancement of the former (I think Charles Darwen said that LOL

The bottom line in this never ending argument is that it is illegal and morally wrong to download copyrighted material, but, it is now impossible to enforce. The BPI and the RIAA have freely admitted that they can't stop the techies as they use peer guardians, encryption and ip spoofing that make it virtually impossible for them to be indentified as file sharers.

It's an argument that no side will win. If you are happy to break the law then file share, if not, then pay for it...simples

making cd's cheaper is not going to make any difference.
if someone can get it for free with virtually no risk of having any action taken against them, then why would they still pay for it.

Even with this stupid 3 strikes and your out policy, the govt are essentially saying, go ahead and do it until you are caught, then you'll get a warning.
Then keep going until you get caught again, then you'll get a second warning.

Then....either risk being cut off, or get your techy friend to sort it for ya so that you wont get caught a 3rd time. lol

as for the "you wouldn't walk into HMV and steal a cd"
I hate this analogy.
For a start, if you walk into HMV, you have deterents all over the place, security cameras, security guards, security tags, so why would you steal when the chances are you are going to get caught. How does this compare with the online version?
Yes you are still stealing, but the chances of being caught are miniscule, and even if you are, your just gonna get a warning.

Change it to "Would you walk into HMV and steal a CD if there were no security cameras/guards/tags and there were 100 people all walking out the store at the same time"?

You can't compare a kitchen fitter's labouring to that of a musician. Who'd get all the money if the album went on to sell hundreds of millions of copies? Unlikely in this day and age but if a musician is just paid once there's no fair way of doing it. Of course there could be an argument for musicians getting a salary off a label and bands being paid a wage. That'd be quite a nice system I suppose, with improvements in salary if you do well on the sales front. That might work.

Payment aside I'd like to think music is different to the fruits of conventional labour. When was the last time a kitchen fitter's labour inspired you or made you feel any emotion? My laminate floor is wonderfully done but it doesn't tug at the heart strings like Love Will Tear Us Apart. The tiles in the bathroom are great and the fitter did a brilliant job but they hardly inspire me in the same way as when I first heard a Jimi Hendrix record. The same thing can be said the programming code I write. I doubt it's reduced anyone to tears... apart from when it crashes (which is a rather common occurence)!

It's not a question about earning millions from selling a CD or having thousands of fans seeing you, besides the two would go hand in hand as if you've got thousands of fans you're laughing. Personally I'd be happy enough to just earn enough to not have to have a full time job staring at a screen all day. Nothing greedy, if I was earning as much from writing music and gigging as I could stacking shelves I'd be happy.

On the subject of live vs studio, at the moment I'm recording an album using instruments like the Roland Jupiter 8 and vintage Moogs and using lots of layering of sounds. You can't really do that live unless you're Jean Michel Jarre, with an army of technicians on the books! JM Jarre was amazing when I saw him live as it happens. However I've seen a lot of bands who've been a HUGE letdown of late. Ultravox were terrible, My Bloody Valentine were the worst band I've ever seen and Iron Maiden were pretty diabolical (certainly for £50). The reason why? They couldn't emulate the wonderful sound on their records.

(oh eck, cue an array of angry Maiden fans).

I'm not angry...it's live music, some nights it can sound great, others, it can sound dreadful. That's why we go to see live bands. If I wanna hear the song played perfectly, I'll put the cd on (or mp3 on in the case of this blog pmsl)

quote Film One: "You can't compare a kitchen fitter's labouring to that of a musician.

He's here at the moment...you try telling him LOL

I'm with Scott on this one - who's gonna pay when it's available for free with minimum chance of being caught. Only when there is a definite penalty in place will people start to think twice.

Another point - whilst there have been a few major artists/bands speak out against free downloading, I bet there's thousands of well-known bands who'll keep schtum because they know it could affect gig ticket sales. There's been loads of bands I've been to watch live on the back of downloading a few tracks...so in a way they still get paid.

Nearly all, if not most of the musician's and music fan's I know have NO problems with music file sharing Whatsoever!!! Most are in the 30+ anyway and probably download music they have already bought on legacy formats LP, Cassette, CD... aannnd do got sick of having to pay for the .mp3 versio, blu-ray, and will not purchase the latest 'terpsichodian injectmenta' release either.

Easy solution!!!... go back to vinyl. Beside the fact analog quality and the records deteriate which means a stable market (!?!).. the experience of listening to LP records and the size and art work of a an LP cover will not be surpassed....

Digital music production was a Pandora's box..has too many merit's and one MASSIVE downfall. Piracy!! HA HAAARRRR!! hard cheese!! Sony, BMG, Geffen, W.B.

The thing is, the genie is now out of the bottle...and there's nothing to be done about it. But what is needed is a new system of payment (well actually there isn't...99.9% of musicians are quite happy doing what they're doing...ok a few extra quid come in handy, but we don't really do it for money do we? I certainly don't)

what I'd like to suggest is rather than these superstar recording artists complaining they cant get millions because people are now downloading their music...they should get off their backsides and start touring regularly if they wanna make a livin from music...and play smaller venues more regularly...Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen are making enough from their concerts... OK the stones tour...big stadiums big money....why not record a studio album and actually give it away at the concerts. There have been a couple of artists doing this recently (but I thought of it first LOL)....ok record retailers might not like it, but their day is over (apart from the specialist vinyl type shops)
I get your point about music being a 'moving experience' however most of the big selling stuff these days is just naff. If I want to be moved I'll buy a book of poetry, and if I wanna be really moved by music I'll download a Palestrina piece, no copyright, musicians paid for their job etc etc
Its the use of music to get instant riches attitude...how many times do you see on X factor the 'I wanna be a singer cos i wanna make millions' expressed by the contestants...well music shouldn't be like that, and wont be for much longer...and then perhaps we'll no longer have to put up with The Ketchup song

And as an after thought...poets make bugger all and they put just as much effort into their work as musicians..and they can be much more moving than a musician.

Bored with this thread now...NEXT!!!

What about the likes of Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead who put the albums up online for free, or in Radiohead's case, pay what you want, which was bugger all in a majority of cases.
Which again says, no matter how cheaply you offer something, a majority of people will always go for the free option

For a long time, artists lost money on tours. They made money on album and singles sales, which helped prop their tours up. Now they just put ticket prices right up, as the album is effectively dead. The genie IS well and truly out of the bottle and off down the road on his bike and it's too late to start to try to tease him back in.

Musicians should be paid for their work, I agree. It's perhaps a shame that formats exist that are so easily copied / shared.

Do I download? Yes.
On the whole it is stuff that can't be found in shops.

Times they are a changing!
Gone are the days when for a few days work in a studio they could rake in millions!
The record companys and artists alike have to come to terms with the new era!
Everybody has a computer and the power to make. copy or create great quality music in there own home!
The Record companys are already giving original music a wide birth in favour of a solo vocalist doing an old cover in a more modern format, cause it's cheap, quick,little outlay and aimed at the kids who still actually buy there music whether on line or from a music store!
Dont we have a similar problem with venues closing and fee's dropping or becoming stagnent?
How many places are opting for a Kareoke night instead??
They like us have to accept what is happening and move on and if possible up our game or look for new ways to make it pay?

Night Train, I was making the point that labour, as in doing something with a physical end product is different to something like music, art and literature. A high degree of skill is involved in both. When a kitchen is fitted you get paid for fitting that kitchen. If you fitted the same kitchen you designed in ten identical houses, you'd get paid ten times, not once. With an album it's the same thing. Someone can't steal your kitchen as easily as a piece of music as even if they knicked the cupboards and work tops you installed, it'd take them ages to install them and the thing of value in that instance of kitchen theft isn't what you created, it's the raw materials.

I'm all in favour of musicians deciding how to make their income but I think if a band chooses not to gig and chooses to just record and nothing else (rather like Scott Walker) it's unfair that people should steal their music. Particularly when albums get leaked before launch. It'd be like someone ringing up all your clients the night before you start work and installing the same kitchen you were going to do for free. It's incredibly unlikely that would happen but imagine if it did, you'd be a bit annoyed! If a musician can earn a living just from gig tickets and merchandise, good on them though. However, it does annoy me that bands charge you £20 for a T-Shirt you can spit through and the bootleggers outside charge you £5 for the same design on a better T-Shirt, but that's another issue!

What I will say is that if that legal sites like Spotify, which let people listen to music and get an idea of whether they like a band before buying stuff should be encouraged. I've got into loads of bands off the strength of listening to stations on the rather great www.live365.com and as a result bought literally hundreds of CDs I wouldn't have normally considered. I think artists like Bob Dylan are being short-sighted removing their back catalogue from there as the only alternative to checking out Bob Dylan for a young kid exploring bygone eras of music is now to torrent it. Following on from that point I also think if a band wants to release their work to the public domain, nothing should stop them and good on them if they choose to do it.

Drum Bloke, I do find it ironic that if the music industry had stuck with vinyl, less of the problems would've happened. Even then though, it's easy enough to rip vinyl to a PC. It only takes one person to upload it to the Internet. And there'd probably be a "Vinyl-R" drive before long! Though with regards to the artwork, Apple have started doing digital artwork with albums now - containing images and photos. It's not something that'd really interest me as I prefer a physical object, but at least they're trying something.

# Posted by Film One - 25/09/2009, 11:39 (GMT)
"Music just seems valueless these days. "


Agreed brother..It's more a like a Big Mac nowadays' than a Sunday roast..

perhaps the kitchen fitter analogy wasn't quite what I should have put...I've got them on the brain at the moment LOL

Did you get your worktops sorted Alec?
I'll be expecting royalties through if you did? ha ha!

# Posted by Film One - 25/09/2009, 14:09 (GMT)
"And there'd probably be a "Vinyl-R" drive before long!"

I think they have tried laser turntables that would read Vynyl with error correction, no turntable, rumble, hiss, pops, or surface noise whatsoever. Cost a fortune obvioulsy..

Good constructive arguments,and very erudite views,especially from Film One, but expect no less from a Andy Ritchie fan !!!!!

Yeh
you wouldn't think that he was our ex bassist??
He's sold out to the originals! Boooh!

Edit my comment:

.. no turntable, rumble, hiss, pops, or surface noise ...

Yes there was a turntable for the Vynyl to spin on.. DOH!

http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200509.htm = 10 'BAGS OF SAND' PLEASE. Thank You. 'Ker-ching'

"Posted by Blues and Beyond - 25/09/2009, 14:25 (GMT)

Good constructive arguments,and very erudite views,especially from Film One, but expect no less from a Andy Ritchie fan !!!!!
"


Didn't he play for Oldham ?

I thought you were going to say I've sold out to girly synth pop rather than originals Gordon! Surely that's a bigger crime for an ex-hard rocking bassist? Still, if Phil Lynott can turn his hand to synth pop and get away with it.

I remember seeing the laser turntable, although a work of technical genius I think it kind of defies the whole point of a turntable. It would be nice in the sense that you couldn't play your record collection to death I suppose.

I don't know what the future is for the music industry. I know artists like Patrick Wolf (it appears from an idea Marillion had years ago) have an interesting idea in that they get their fans to pay for their album production/promo costs and then give them back some of the proceeds relative to how much they've fronted. That could be quite an interesting one and it's a great thing from a fan point of view, that way you know all your money is going to the artist and not to some suited-up music exec.

Good music will prevail, people will always write wonderful music and play on stages to entertain us but I think it'd be really sad if we lost those beautifully produced epic albums of bygone years.

Yes, Drum Bloke, "Stitch" did play for the Latics. He's about as close to the second coming as someone wearing a blue shirt with an owl on it will ever get! True legend!

He`s got no hair but we dont care !!! ha ha this is digressing now !!! mr nwb will get me for blog highjacking !!!

I didn't want to mention your musical lapse discepancy in public Mike!

You won't be calling it a lapse if you ever add "Jump" or "The Final Countdown" to your set!

Apologies for digressing, Mr NWB. Next post I have on here will be back on topic I promise.

"Jump" or "The Final Countdown?????????????
Thank god for copy an paste
I could never have written that!!!!!!!

There is that much music being released every week and if we are intrested in all kinds of music how could we afford to buy originals? If its wasnt for piracey most of the tracks would not not get known as much. Does NWB not have an album with the best track from all the top boys on the site?

# Posted by Coolers Bar: "There is that much music being released every week and if we are intrested in all kinds of music how could we afford to buy originals?"

The fact that there is lots of new music being released isn't a good excuse for everyone to just take it. There has always been loads of new music released in the vinyl days and we all managed somehow. There are lots of new cars out there too, but I bought mine.

"Does NWB not have an album with the best track from all the top boys on the site?"

The difference with the NWB compilation is that we have all quite willingly donated a track (we even have two on it) to be used as necessary. Consent is the big thing there.

It's very interesting that this debate is still going on.

About 5 years ago I launched a campaign to save the music industry. In the article I wrote, I echoed many of the points made in this thread. Had my campaign gathered more than a handful of votes, I would have taken the petition to the major players in the industry. As it was, I was met with an apathy and lack of confidence in any kind of change. The end result is that people are still arguing the same points and very little has changed.

It's a shame, because I devised a way to solve all the arguments in one fell swoop. Although, admittedly, it would require a much more amiable World for it to succeed.

My article is still online if you want to check it out (it's quite a long read) ... http://www.wobblymusic.net/campaign.htm

hmmm .... "......... To copyright your song should be simple, and what's more, it should be FREE. All songwriters will need to do, is upload their new songs as MIDI files of the melody only, with the lyrics attached. A simple peice of software can then immediately search every other song that's ever been copyrighted (uploaded), to check if your new song is similar to any of them. "

So melody is now the defining point of copyright on a song??

So if my melody goes :
A B C# A A B C# A C# D E / C# D E / etc .. (Frere Jacques)
over a pedal A bass (key of A major)

then a song with the same melody line, perhaps slightly different tempo and over a moving bass of say F# and C# (key of F# minor)

will be classed as the same song and thrown out!!??

Is this right?? Does this software exist and is it clever enough to copyright something on melody alone???

I don't think I'd be too amiable about that!!
(that's if id ever written anything original in me life)!

Willowknackeredfromreading